WW LXXXVII - The Valley Forge

[Boromir88]

2 lightning strikes landed practically right on top of our house and power's out. I've got a little over an hour of battery on my laptop, but...this didn't take long to read.

I was hoping Pitch would have replied.

Ah well, in that case all I'll say is hi-ho, hi-ho off to the bus I go. And knowing what happened last time I had to be gone for the weekend...I care not what happens to me, but don't let phantom convince you I will make some miraculous return to save and prove some genius plan of his. I won't and if he tries that one again, he should probably be lynched.

[Mithalwen]

I for one have no desire for a repeat performance of that horror.....

[Inziladun]

Here's something to consider, in light of the votes for Pitch toDay.

G55 was after him all day yesterDay, and she was lynched. If Pitch is indeed a Forger, why wasn't the pack satisfied with the death of G55? Wouldn't it have seemed likely to them that they'd gotten the KD? Why then go after Rikae?

[Finduilas]

I'm confused as to how Pitchwife has suddenly earned several peoples mistrust. He was the first to vote for both Bom and Gal55, if I remember correctly, so he seems to be rather accurate at pinpointing forges... I'm guessing people are considering him to be a forge that is killing off all his members, and then he is going to try to win single-handedly?

Pity I didn't get on fast enough to ask that question of either Boro or McCaber.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

I'm confused as to how Pitchwife has suddenly earned several peoples mistrust. He was the first to vote for both Bom and Gal55, if I remember correctly, so he seems to be rather accurate at pinpointing forges... I'm guessing people are considering him to be a forge that is killing off all his members, and then he is going to try to win single-handedly?

I've thought Pitch pretty reasonable, myself. See what I said above.

There's the possibility, though, that the pack really was convinced they'd gotten the KD with G55. That would mean Rikae was sacrificed to give an air of innocence to Pitch and tp; or that after her "hints" of being the KD, it was thought leaving her alive would be too suspicious. That seems awfully convoluted to me, though.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

I'm confused as to how Pitchwife has suddenly earned several peoples mistrust. He was the first to vote for both Bom and Gal55, if I remember correctly, so he seems to be rather accurate at pinpointing forges... I'm guessing people are considering him to be a forge that is killing off all his members, and then he is going to try to win single-handedly?

Basically, it's because Rikae both voted him and left some possible KD hints– and got Night-killed. In the light of that, his "accuracy" could be typical wolf-on-wolf voting– or, in this game with its strange dynamics, wolf-on-KD voting. I'm not saying it has to be so, understand, but that's the reasoning.

Btw– you're calling them "forges", are you?

Originally Posted by Zil

There's the possibility, though, that the pack really was convinced they'd gotten the KD with G55. That would mean Rikae was sacrificed to give an air of innocence to Pitch and tp; or that after her "hints" of being the KD, it was thought leaving her alive would be too suspicious. That seems awfully convoluted to me, though.

Yes. Zil, sorry, but this doesn't make sense at all– why would it give an "air of innocence" to Pitch and tp? Is it because of what you said before, that the wolves wouldn't kill Rikae for going after Pitch because G55, who had already gone after him, was dead? But that doesn't make sense either.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yes. Zil, sorry, but this doesn't make sense at all– why would it give an "air of innocence" to Pitch and tp? Is it because of what you said before, that the wolves wouldn't kill Rikae for going after Pitch because G55, who had already gone after him, was dead? But that doesn't make sense either.

It just seems odd to me that if Pitch and tp, both repeatedly pointed out as baddies by G55, really are Forgers, why was Rikae seen as more of KD possibility than she? Both can't be the KD. What am I missing here?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It just seems odd to me that if Pitch and tp, both repeatedly pointed out as baddies by G55, really are Forgers, why was Rikae seen as more of KD possibility than she? Both can't be the KD. What am I missing here?

Well, the wolves don't get any extra information, do they?

[Finduilas]

My take is that since both G55 and Rikae voted against Pitch, and both turned out to be Forge members, neither one of them could be the KD. Though that is not fool-proof logic, I do think it makes sense... does it?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Btw– you're calling them "forges", are you?

I hadn't noticed, but I guess so.

Edit: xed with Nerwen

[Folwren]

The general dwarven populace was confused about the Forge’s kill of the previous night. “Why did they kill him? Why one of their own?”

“Don’t you know?” a small voice asked. They turned. It was a young dwarf woman. She looked at each of them carefully before continuing. “One of them was a traitor to their fellowship. He had been amongst them for some time now, and he was the one giving away their secrets. That is why you were able to find and kill some so easily the past couple evenings. I thought you knew.”

“Haha!” they cried, their eyes gleaming. “Then if this was their traitor, who are the ones he suspected, quick, who knows?”

They spent hours discussing the likely dwarves. But again, the dwarf woman said.

“He wasn’t their traitor. It was somebody else.”

“We cannot be certain,” a dwarf said, sharply. “You shouldn’t speak so.”

The girl’s eyes glimmered. “I don’t speak so unwittingly. I know what it is I say. That dead dwarf there,” she pointed to the body still lying untouched due to the heat of their argument, “is not the King’s messenger, who has infiltrated their fellowship.”

“Here are our last two Forge members!” someone shouted. There was a scuffling and scraping, and two dwarves were dragged forward. Their shirts had been torn and their shoulders exposed, and the brand clear to see to all. The sight infuriated the crowd, and they began to chant:

“Kill them! Kill them! Kill them both!”

“Let us hang them from the highest tree!” “Burn them in their own forge!” “Kill them!”

Like a mighty river, the two dwarves were swept away by the others, pushed and shoved and dragged to the place of their death. Pushing through the mob, but ever behind her goal, came the dwarf woman who had spoken up, trying to gain someone’s attention, anyone –

“No! You can’t kill them both. I know who it is! You cannot kill him with the guilty one!”

To the mighty oak that stood at their town square they went. Someone brought rope and in a matter of minutes they had made their nooses and thrown the ropes up over two strong limbs. Many hands reached out to help heave them up, suspending their kicking feet in the air.

The dwarf woman drew near, staring up at one of them, and then she turned to the crowd and said, her voice shaking with emotion and rebuke,

“You have killed the dwarf the King sent to save us. And he has saved us. This is how you thank him and King Dáin.”

Village Dwarves win. The Valley Forge is defeated. The King's Dwarf completed his mission, but died while doing so.

Alive
Sally
Inzil
Boro
Eruhen
Finduilas
McCaber
the Phantom
Mithalwen

Dead
Folwren - Moddess
Bom - Member of the Valley Forge
Wilwa - Night Watchdwarf
Glirdan - Ordo
Gal55 - Member of the Valley Forge
Rikae - Member of the Valley Forge
Nerwen - Member of the Valley Forge
Pitchwife - Member of the Valley Forge and the King's Dwarf

[McCaber]

WOOOOOOOO!!! Nice game, everyone.

Although I was only two for three in my initial picks, but Nerwen would have been my fourth. I guess we can't win 'em all.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I was hoping Pitch would have replied.

Sorry, I have to sleep sometimes.

OK, let's have it out. What Mith calls "that horror" shortly before DL yesterDay revolved around tp's query about my colour scale:

Originally Posted by the phantom

Pitch- your list. Can I ask, is everyone precisely where you feel they ought to be, or has one or more individuals been shifted slightly for the purpose of good strategic play?

and my reply to that:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

More or less where I think they belong - but you'll have noticed that the person who should go in White-Hot must be somewhere else.

tp seems to assume that by saying this, I was unambiguously implying the role of the person I would have put in White-Hot, and thus unambiguously implying my own role in a way that comes close to a reveal worthy of modfire. I don't see that this is true.

Rikae picked up the idea and ran with it, claiming that the fact that I hadn't been modfired indicated that I was lying. Her being killed in the Night obviously seems to corroborate that claim.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I don't see what good could come for one of the Forgers to die in an attempt to look like the KD, not after having Bom and Gal lynched. Unless if somehow Gal was the KD, and Rikae covered for the rest of her pack to make it look like she was? Again, I don't see the benefit there.

Let's say if I was correct in my suspicions yesterDay, and given that quite a number of people seemed to trust me, wouldn't it make sense for the Forge to do their utmost to discredit me? Especially if the last Forger hasn't been much suspected otherwise and thinks s/he has a reasonable cance to make it?

Rikae as the KD would implicate me, tp and McCaber as possible Forgers. Suspects enough to occupy the village for a while, and for Rikae's packmate to reduce the number of innocents via Night kills in the meantime.

As to who I think that packmate is, I made a case against her yesterDay.
++Nerwen

[Nerwen]

What th–?

Yes, Pitch, I saw you flung out some wild accusations yesterDay– after I left and said I might not be back again, by the way– but they weren't anything I'd call a case. I've been trying to be absolutely fair and not let that prejudice me against you toDay– but that's it–

++Pitchwife.

And I don't think I'll be making any retractions, either.

And as I was about to explain to Zil and Finduilas: Zil's argument doesn't make sense because the wolves would have no way of telling when the real KD was dead. It's that simple.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

And as I was about to explain to Zil and Finduilas: Zil's argument doesn't make sense because the wolves would have no way of telling when the real KD was dead. It's that simple.

Which is why I ask: assuming Pitch is a Forger, who would have worried the pack more yesterDay, G55 or Rikae?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Which is why I ask: assuming Pitch is a Forger, who would have worried the pack more yesterDay, G55 or Rikae?

Why does it matter? G55 was dead anyway by the end of yesterDay; Rikae was still alive.

[Nerwen]

Do you get my point now, Zil? Forge member A and Forge member B both drop hints and both accuse the same person. Member A is lynched– role unconfirmed. Does this mean the Forge can consider Member B cleared of KD-ness? Well, no, surely. Not unless they're given extra info on the dead party's role, anyway.

–By the way, though, a complicating factor in all this is that there's no reason *normal* wolf-on-wolf tactics can't be happening in this game. People seem to be assuming it isn't, but I don't know why. I would say that if Pitch is a wolf, he initially went after G55 in the more usual way– I don't think she started dropping hints until much later. (Though again, we don't know what happend at Night.) So that might answer your question a different way: they may not have ever thought she was the KD.

As for Pitch– well, I may have let my temper get the better of me after having been voted out of the blue like that. But he does sound like a baddie clutching at straws to me.

[Finduilas]

++Nerwen

If Pitch must die, I think we should do a double lynching, as dangerous as it may be. I think most of us will agree that Pitch is something, either a forge member, or the KD (either way, a forge member). If he is the KD, then Nerwen is the last of the Forges. So, I say, either just kill Nerwen, (and if the game does not end at that point, pop off Pitch the next day) or kill both of them. This method will take cooperation from everyone, so I guess we would all have to agree... I'm really in favor of just killing Nerwen, personally, and worrying about Pitch tomorrow. Pitch and Nerwen have already made their votes for each other. With my vote, there are 3 votes against Pitch, and 2 votes against Nerwen. Worst case scenario with this is that we get one Forger (Pitch) and one Ordo (Nerwen), and best case scenario is pretty bad too, we get one Forger (Nerwen) and we get the KD (Pitch). I suppose that it would be possible to get it the other way around, with Nerwen as the KD and Pitch as the forger, but Nerwen's vote for Pitch seemed more of a "take that" vote, than a "your a forger and I'm the KD" vote.

Edit: x/ed with Nerwen, post #292

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

If Pitch must die, I think we should do a double lynching, as dangerous as it may be. I think most of us will agree that Pitch is something, either a forge member, or the KD (either way, a forge member). If he is the KD, then Nerwen is the last of the Forges. So, I say, either just kill Nerwen, (and if the game does not end at that point, pop off Pitch the next day) or kill both of them.

I think this works for me. I'm also keeping in mind the fact that Pitch has voted for Forgers two Days straight, and Nerwen chose McCaber over G55.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

Let's lynch both of them etc.

Naturally, I am not on board with this at all. In fact, if there was any other reason whatever to suspect Finduilas, I'd be thinking this was attempted damage control by Team Evil... but there isn't, so I'm guessing she's just a newbie who doesn't realise someone with a good voting record can still be a wolf.

I think most of us will agree that Pitch is something, either a forge member, or the KD (either way, a forge member).

If he was really the KD, I should think he'd have been modfired by now– at any, I'd think the real KD would be afraid to sail that close to the wind in the first place.

EDIT:since Finduilas.

[Nerwen]

You know what, Pitch? It seems to me that if the wolves decided to kill someone they thought was the KD, and her death would point to one or both of them– they might try cooking up some kind of weird framing scenario to explain it. I notice you jumped right in with that theory earlier, too.

EDIT:X'd with Zil.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yes, Pitch, I saw you flung out some wild accusations yesterDay– after I left and said I might not be back again, by the way–

Yes. That was one reason I voted G55 and not you.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I've been trying to be absolutely fair and not let that prejudice me against you toDay–

In other words, you haven't pushed Rikae-as-KD and used it to accuse me outright, because that might have looked like you had something to gain from framing me; you've just collected her possible KD-hints, surrounding them with a lot of question-marks and could-be's, and left it to the village to draw the conclusions. So far it seems to work.

If I'm a Forger and either G55 or Rikae was the KD, why did both of them accuse me yesterDay? And what do you make of this?

Originally Posted by Rikae

G55, you do realize being lynched by day is no longer much help, right? Or is it?

[the phantom]

Okay, time to make sure we have this in hand.

Q: If Rikae was the KD, who is innocent?
A: She defended Gal55.
Q: Was she correct?
A: No.

Q: If Rikae was the KD, which dwarf do we lynch?
A: Pitch.
Q: Why only one person? Aren't there two more forgers?
A: Um....

Okay, so let's be serious here- I didn't say any of this earlier because I wanted to see which direction all of you tried to go with things, but be honest- the only way Rikae was the KD was if the KD was under special instructions from the Moddess not to go after all the Forgers and even defend one or two of them.

If we work under the assumption that she wasn't thet KD, what then is the logic for her kill?

1) It's a terribly devious and shocking plot that we can't understand at this point that will somehow lead to victory for the Forge.
***or****
2) The Forge lost two members in the first two days and it knew it would lose another today if they didn't do something insane at night, plus Rikae was feeling a bit disgusted with the situation and was happy to be killed in the desperate gamble.

(In case you weren't aware, I'm getting at option #2 making the most sense.)

[the phantom]

Nerwen & Pitch are tied at 3.

Yet to vote- Eruhen, Sally, Mith, and Phantom.

[Finduilas]

There seems to be a thought that Pitchwife, if he is the KD, deserved modfiring. He has not said anything to deserve modfiring, I believe, he has merely pointed out one Forge after another. This, I think, may be a bit foolhardy as a KD, but it isn't cheating. He never said anything like "I know for certain that these people are Forges" "Trust me, I have inside information" or anything of that sort. He always, when he gave reasons for his vote, used their comments on the thread. So, he isn't necessarily the KD (though I think he is, as I don't think that he is a forge member), but even if he is, I don't think he cheated. So, we can't take the fact that he hasn't been Modfired as proof that he isn't the KD.

[Eruhen]

Still not at home yet, but at least I have internet access. I don't have time to post my thoughts now, but if I get home with enough time before DL, I plan on it.

For now, though...

++Nerwen