Thorin in the Blue Mountains

[Kuruharan]

and he had little hope that Dáin Ironfoot would help in any attempt upon the dragon

The length of time since I'd seriously read the Tolkien background materials starts to show. I'd forgotten that particular line.

I find it interesting in light of the earlier conversation regarding Dain and Thorin.

I read that line to say even if Thorin appeared in the Iron Hills one day and said to Dain, "What ho, old bean! Time to rally the troops to take out that nasty, overgrown lizard, what, what!" Dain would have said something to the effect of, "No." I wonder whether Dain would have thought the whole enterprise insane or if he thought Thorin would make a botch of it.

At this point I would also freely speculate about the nature of dwarven kingship shown by Dain's ability to refuse Thorin...but I think it didn't have much to do with the formalities of the dwarven monarchy and more to do with the realpolitik of Thorin being unable to force Dain to go.

[Formendacil]

A scenario occurs to me in all this that is interesting, and only moderately tangential. What if Thorin had not managed to retake Erebor? Let us suppose, perhaps, that Thorin & Co. failed, that Bilbo was not able to tell the thrush about Smaug's weakspot, and the son of Thráin died with all his company on the slopes of the Lonely Mountain. Or what if Thorin had never run into Gandalf and been able to put together a plan and company--a situation where he would die lonely and embittered in his Blue Mountain home--what then?

Well, we know that Thorin was childless, and that Dáin Ironfoot was his direct heir (Fíli and Kíli, of course, were his sister-sons my read on Dwarven succession is that it was more Salic than the French). What then? I can't see Dáin travelling to the Blue Mountains to "inherit" Thorin's smithy there--not when he had a much more impressive lordship in the Iron Hills. Nor can I see him refusing any title save that of King Under the Mountain--and I agree with Squatter's assessment that this was the ONLY title Thorin was interested in pursuing. It seems more than likely to me, therefore, that had Smaug not been taken out and the mountain reclaimed when it was, that Dáin would have been the first "King of the Iron Hills."

It also strikes me that the biggest difference between Thorin and Dáin in this respect is not Thorin's intractability vs. Dáin's pragmatism (though this *is* an element); rather, I think it has to do with their ages. Thorin remembered Erebor. What is more, he remembered Erebor specifically as the son of the son of the King Under the Mountain, as the dwarf who, barring Smaug and/or premature death, was raised to expect that he would someday be King Under the Mountain himself. Dáin, on the other hand, was younger--if my memory serves, he was young enough that he would not remember Erebor. In any case, he probably didn't live there, since his grandfather, Grór, moved to the Iron Hills, where Dáin and his father would both eventually rule.

Consequently, Dáin's memory of the House of Durin was not the same as Thorin's--that is to say, it was not bound up with the Kingship of Erebor. Certainly, we know that once he became king, his memory of the kingship did not hinged on the possession of Khazad-dûm. Looking back historically, it makes one wonder what the Lords of the Longbeards called themselves after Durin VI and Náin I died at the hands of the Balrog. Did Thráin I and his son, Thorin I, call themselves Kings of Moria?

Although Thráin I settled in Erebor and found the Arkenstone there, I doubt he called himself "King Under the Mountain"--and if he did, it doesn't seem to have stuck, since his son Thorin I decided that the Grey Mountains were just as good a place to live as Erebor. My analysis of this situation is the Heirs of Durin after the loss of Moria were just as "lost" as Thrór, Thráin II, and Thorin II after the loss of Erebor.

Indeed, after Glóin, Óin, Náin II, and Dáin I ruled in the Grey Mountains, it seems to me to have been a very fortunate thing for Thrór that he was able to "return" to Erebor after the dragons drove his people out of the Grey Mountains, else the Kingdom Under the Mountain might not have ever been really established at all. Instead, he might have gone with his brother, Grór, to the Iron Hills and pined about the loss of the Grey Mountains.

On that note, I think it's also worth noting that the loss of the Grey Mountains before Erebor was probably on Thrór's mind a lot after the loss of Erebor as well, and might have engendered a thirst for vengeance in his line to fall back again, but to toe the line against evil things and retake Erebor or die trying.

[Inziladun]

Nice post, Form.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Although Thráin I settled in Erebor and found the Arkenstone there, I doubt he called himself "King Under the Mountain"--and if he did, it doesn't seem to have stuck, since his son Thorin I decided that the Grey Mountains were just as good a place to live as Erebor. My analysis of this situation is the Heirs of Durin after the loss of Moria were just as "lost" as Thrór, Thráin II, and Thorin II after the loss of Erebor.

Looking more closely at it, I wonder if the Longbeards, being the people of Durin, might not have been the only Dwarves to have a "king", and maybe that weighed on them all the more heavily when Khazad-dûm, and later Erebor, were lost.

In The Silmarillion, the only Dwarven cities we see are Nogrod and Belegost.
Interestingly, they don't seem to be referred to as "kingdoms", and their leaders not as "kings".

One [pearl] there was as great as a dove's egg....the chieftain of the Dwarves of Belegost prized it above a mountain of wealth.

Of the Sindar

And later, at the Nirnaeth, the dragon Glaurung was wounded by Dwarves, and

in his rage Glaurung turned and struck down Azaghâl, Lord of Belegost.

Of the Fifth Battle

After the sack of Doriath by the Dwarves of Nogrod, and their subsequent ambush in Ossiriand, Beren

himself slew the Lord of Nogrod.

The Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, of course, were not of the Longbeards.

In additon, the Ring inscription said "Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone."

So, maybe actual Dwarven kingship was reserved for those of the line of Durin, which certainly could have influenced Thorin in not declaring himself king of a relatively small people in the Ered Luin.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Dáin, on the other hand, was younger--if my memory serves, he was young enough that he would not remember Erebor. In any case, he probably didn't live there, since his grandfather, Grór, moved to the Iron Hills, where Dáin and his father would both eventually rule.

I'm quite tired right now so I will limit my comment to one thing.

I didn't think Dain's family were ever in Erebor. I thought that at least since around the time of the fall of Khazad-dum they had been in the Iron Hills.

I may be mistaken about this.

More to come.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm quite tired right now so I will limit my comment to one thing.

I didn't think Dain's family were ever in Erebor. I thought that at least since around the time of the fall of Khazad-dum they had been in the Iron Hills.

I may be mistaken about this.

More to come.

I think you might be placing Dáin's place in the line of Durin at far more distaff position than it properly occupies. He was son of Náin, who was son of Grór, who was the son of King Dáin I, who ruled in the Grey Mountains--and since Thrór was the elder brother of Grór, Dáin's lineage is the same as Thorin's before that. Indeed, if Dáin's family line had diverged from Thorin's before the fall of Moria, then Balin, Dwalin, Óin, Glóin, and Gimli (at least) would have had prior claims on the Kingdom Under the Mountain.

I'm almost positive that "Dwarves and Men" says that the Longbeards colonised the Iron Hills (and most of the Grey and Misty Mountains between there and Moria) long before the fall of Khazad-dûm, but Dáin's patrilineal ancestors could not have lived there before his grandfather, because it wasn't until Grór that his ancestors weren't Kings of Durin's line.

So... while I agree that Dáin's family (but only Dáin's family insofar as it is distinct from Thorin Oakenshield's) was never associated with Erebor, and while it is true that the Longbeards were associated with the Iron Hills almost since time immemorial, Dáin's family history there doesn't go back QUITE as far as that.

[Kuruharan]

I think you might be placing Dáin's place in the line of Durin at far more distaff position than it properly occupies. He was son of Náin, who was son of Grór, who was the son of King Dáin I, who ruled in the Grey Mountains--and since Thrór was the elder brother of Grór, Dáin's lineage is the same as Thorin's before that. Indeed, if Dáin's family line had diverged from Thorin's before the fall of Moria, then Balin, Dwalin, Óin, Glóin, and Gimli (at least) would have had prior claims on the Kingdom Under the Mountain.

I'm almost positive that "Dwarves and Men" says that the Longbeards colonised the Iron Hills (and most of the Grey and Misty Mountains between there and Moria) long before the fall of Khazad-dûm, but Dáin's patrilineal ancestors could not have lived there before his grandfather, because it wasn't until Grór that his ancestors weren't Kings of Durin's line.

So... while I agree that Dáin's family (but only Dáin's family insofar as it is distinct from Thorin Oakenshield's) was never associated with Erebor, and while it is true that the Longbeards were associated with the Iron Hills almost since time immemorial, Dáin's family history there doesn't go back QUITE as far as that.

That is quite correct. Thank you for setting me straight on that.

Looking more closely at it, I wonder if the Longbeards, being the people of Durin, might not have been the only Dwarves to have a "king", and maybe that weighed on them all the more heavily when Khazad-dûm, and later Erebor, were lost.

-and-

So, maybe actual Dwarven kingship was reserved for those of the line of Durin

Very interesting theory. I can't find any textual evidence against it although I'm not inclined to agree with it.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

I seem to remember that in the Appendices mention is made of dwarves living in the Ered Luin in the Fourth Age. It might well be that their permanent settlements there throughout history had hereditary rulers who were not of Durin's house.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

I seem to remember that in the Appendices mention is made of dwarves living in the Ered Luin in the Fourth Age. It might well be that their permanent settlements there throughout history had hereditary rulers who were not of Durin's house.

I would guess you're referring to this from Appendix A , "Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur":

But Dwarves dwelt, and still dwell, in the east side of the Blue Mountains, especially in those parts south of the Gulf of Lune, where they have mines that are still in use.

The cities of Nogrod and Belegost, certainly, were not of the Longbeards.

However, after the end of the First Age, I don't recall any mention of Dwarves having established settlements there prior to Thorin's colony being established in T.A. 2802 (TOY).

It was said, also in Appendix A, that when the Witch-king overran Arthedain in T.A. 1974, that King Arvedui took shelter "in the old dwarf-mines near the far end of the Mountains". Since his next act was to seek aid from the Snowmen of Forochel, it seems clear those mines were near the northern end of the Mountains, and were not occupied.

The first reference above to mines being in the south of the Mountains, might simply refer to Thorin's settlement. At any rate, I think it unlikely Thorin would have gone to the Ered Luin and founded his own settlement if other Dwarves were already established there.