Imagine no religion

[Almesiva Moonshadow]

No religion means no cruch on Sunday so...YAAAAY!

[blantyr]

They might not have priests, but there are a lot of cultures in Middle Earth with minstrels and songs. When Frodo and Sam woke in Ithilin, one of the first major tasks was writing the tale of nine fingered Frodo and the Ring of doom. When Frodo stopped in Rivendell, there was the Hall of Fire. When the Fellowship reached Lorien they had the elves singing songs of the late Mithrandir. Even in the Wild between Bree and Rivendell, Sam knew a few verses telling the story of Gil Galad.

I'd suggest that histories are told in song. Part of the role of the song is to illustrate good and evil. What choices must a hero face, and what have been the consequences in the past?

There is a large difference between a minstrel and a priest. Yet, if there is some universal agreement on the nature of good and evil, a tradition of story telling in song, in keeping alive lessons learned from past mistakes, might well be present.

[Morthoron]

The power of song is very evident throughout Middle-earth history. Or perhaps the better term is "songs of power", which is evidently a theme that intrigued Tolkien. We're' not talking merely singing, but a method used to summon power by beings with innate power themselves, or lesser beings that use an agent in combination with song (Frodo with the phial of Galadrial or Aragorn with athelas).

From the Music of the Ainur, to the battle of Finrod and Sauron, to Luthien and Morgoth, songs of power weaved a spell throughout Arda.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

From the Music of the Ainur, to the battle of Finrod and Sauron, to Luthien and Morgoth, songs of power weaved a spell throughout Arda.

Let us not forget old Tom Bombadil who taught the hobbits a "rhyme" with which to summon him for aid and his weapon against the Barrow Wight, a song. Goldberry's singing also seems to bring a golden light around the hobbits on their arrival at the doorstep to the House of Bombadil.

Note: This is not to resurrect the "Bombadil is Eru" argument.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The power of song is very evident throughout Middle-earth history. Or perhaps the better term is "songs of power", which is evidently a theme that intrigued Tolkien...

From the Music of the Ainur, to the battle of Finrod and Sauron, to Luthien and Morgoth, songs of power weaved a spell throughout Arda.

I do not in the least doubt or intend to diminish the role of song in projecting magic. Many of the greatest spell casters in the histories are singers rather than users of words and gestures.

Still, an ordinary minstrel, a singer of tales with no occult abilities worth mentioning, has a role in keeping alive myth and perpetuating moral standards. When Frodo and Sam awoke in Ithilin after Mount Doom, one of the first things on the agenda was singing the tale of nine fingered Frodo and his ring. Sam in the Wild between Bree and Rivendell sang a bit of the tale of Gil Galad. Then there was the Hall of Fire. One has song for the telling of tales as well as song for the projection of power.

I have an impression that the free peoples of the Third Age were much less likely to muck things up than their First or Second Age counterparts. An awful lot of the First and Second Age stories were tragedies. The Great in their greed, arrogance and pride were apt to muck things up big time, often involving everyone in loss and sorrow.

Perhaps some of the 'goodness' in the free peoples was 'programming,' the creators who sang them into being in the First Music made them to be decent people. If part of the tradition of goodness is taught, I would not underestimate the histories told in song or perhaps epic poetry that kept old traditions alive and reminds folks of what can happen if the wrong choices are made.

In many real world cultures, it is up to the priests to keep the old tales alive and make sure the moral lessons aren't lost. In Middle Earth, while there is no organized church hierarchy or codified clerical laws, the singers might be doing some part of what the priests might do in different sort of culture.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by me

I still can't get past the Númenóreans, and their simple form of formalised "worship" with the Meneltarma ceremonies. Moreover, that form of worship seemed to be acceptable to Ilúvatar, while it lasted. Favour was shown to the Men of Númenor, and they lived under the protection of the Valar. After the Kings hardened their hearts and stopped the custom, things went downhill for Númenor very quickly.

I find it neat the way topics here can sit at the back of one's mind dormant, only to resurface months, even years later when one reads the books again.

I had the thought that even though the Elves only pray to the Valar, as with the plea of Fingon to Manwë when trying to rescue Maedhros:

'O King to whom all birds are dear, speed now this feathered shaft, and recall some pity for the Noldor in their time of need!'

the Númenóreans prayed to both the Valar (specifically Uinen the wife of Ossë) and Eru Ilúvatar.

Prayers to Uinen were not on the same level as the ritualized worship of Eru though. I wonder if that was not due to specific design of the Valar. Perhaps they feared (as proved true) that Men would more easily fall under the sway of whatever 'angelic' beings that walked the earth (Sauron, and Balrogs?) and thus be led astray.
Formal worship of the One would hopefully serve to keep them focused as well on the afterlife that awaited them, instead of becoming obsessed with having more life within the world, bound to it, as the Valar and Elves were.
That is to say that it seems now that the singular worship of Eru by Númenor was tied into both their greatness among mortals, which allowed them something of a taste of Eldar life, with its accompanying potential for envy, and their inherent remaining mortality, which did not allow them the luxury of holding fast to the world.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

There are a lot of passages in LotR where it says that something has happened because it was "meant" to happen. I reread Mt. Doom last night in hopes that I could find a passage where Sam looks to the skies in Mordor and sees one star. He said something that might have referenced Eru, but I didn't find the passage, and I started doubting as to whether or not that actually happened, or if I combined a movie and book moment in my mind. I mention this because even in that one chapter I noticed Sam thinking that something was "meant" to be. If a series of events happens that is attributed to fate, in my mind that is equating those events to be "from God" in some way or another. While the peoples in Middle-earth (the exception being the kings of Numenor) never did seem to go to church, they did talk an awful lot about "luck," fate," and being "meant" to have or to do something. That points, to me, to some higher power at work. That if the characters themselves are only vaguely aware or believe that there are some higher powers working for them, they do appreciate it, and at least mention it. In Mt. Doom, Sam thinks to himself that he has found an incredible stroke of luck when he finds a road in Mordor leading to Orodruin (that the narrator is quick to point out is Sauron's personal road from Barad-dur to the mountain, but Sam does not know this). Sam and Frodo take this road all the way to the mountain. Sam distinctly mumbles to himself about how they were "meant" to find this road and take it. Another example would be Gandalf telling Frodo that he and Bilbo were "meant" to find the Ring, but not by Sauron. That leads me to believe that either Eru or the Valar moved their hands in some way to lead Bilbo to find the Ring in Gollum's keeping.

I hope I did not ramble. I rarely post on the books forum, so my serious posting mode is a bit rusty.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

I reread Mt. Doom last night in hopes that I could find a passage where Sam looks to the skies in Mordor and sees one star. He said something that might have referenced Eru, but I didn't find the passage

It's there. It's in the preceding chapter "The Land of Shadow"

Originally Posted by Land of Shadow

Far above the Ephel Dúath in the West the night-sky was still dim and pale. There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.

His song in the tower had been defiance, rather than hope, for then he had been thinking about himself. Now his own fate, even his master's ceased to trouble him. He crawled back into the thicket, laid himself at Frodo's side, and cast himself at once into a deep and untroubled sleep.

Like most else in LOTR, explicit reference to Eru is minimal or omitted. Tolkien wrote once to the effect that this was intentional. That the, if you will, "religious" elements were subsumed into the story itself, rather than stated explicitly. Thus, the characters do not (except only rarely) refer to Eru but the story is predicated upon both his presence and his sovereignty over the unfolding story.

Hence, Sam's returned hope is based upon his recognition that for all his seeming power and menace and bluster, Sauron is (in the end) futile and passing. It is hard, often, to grasp such a thought in the middle of such travails (which is one reason why few characters "do" grasp it - even for a moment), but it serves to express (I believe) Tolkien's hope - not only for the story of LOTR, but also, by extension, for our times - that when the story has finally reached the end all the pains and loss will be redressed and seen as no more than growing pains - as a rock climber forgets all his/her scrapes and bruises for joy of the view seen once the cliff top has been reached.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Formal worship of the One would hopefully serve to keep them focused as well on the afterlife that awaited them, instead of becoming obsessed with having more life within the world, bound to it, as the Valar and Elves were.
That is to say that it seems now that the singular worship of Eru by Númenor was tied into both their greatness among mortals, which allowed them something of a taste of Eldar life, with its accompanying potential for envy, and their inherent remaining mortality, which did not allow them the luxury of holding fast to the world.

Note however that the (public) worship of Eru was restricted to the King alone, on certain specified days; invoking the Almighty was simply Not Done except by the highest, on the highest occasions. It is said in Cirion and Eorl that the very act of naming The One hallowed the sdummit of Halifirien from thenceforward, and it was an act that astounded all present- even though Cirion legally had all th powers of the Kings, this was one none of his predecessors had ever presumed to exercise.