Imagine no religion

[skip spence]

I repped that post in my half-slumber, Groin, as I thought it was well written. A bit too good was my second thought. You didn't actually write it, did you?

[Groin Redbeard]

I thank you for your rep; however, I have to say that I was surprised by receiving it. I expected to receive a chorus of bored groans instead of questioning. Nothing that I have written is not self evident to a Catholic enthusiast of Tolkien-- in fact, I thought that the bit about the Lembas as eucharistic and Galadriel as Mary was known to just about everyone who has touched on Tolkien's Catholicism.

All these themes are touched on in Bradly Birzer's "Sanctifying Myth" and Peter Kreeft's "The Philosophy of Tolkien."

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Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

I thank you for your rep

I'd take it back and make it red if I could. Not for any theistic belief, but for plagiarism. Always thought you were parroting other people's words, here and elsewhere, but I did expect better than just copy and paste.

[Pitchwife]

skip - as far as I could determine by a quick google search, neither Birzer's nor Kreeft's books are available online, so it's not quite a matter of simple copy-and-paste.
So why make your rep a red one? In my book, it's not a crime to use arguments other people found first (we're all Dwarves standing on the shoulders of Giants most of the time), and it's a merit to represent them well, as Groin has done. OK, he could have given his sources in his post, but other than that, I see nothing wrong with it - as I said above, I had come across all the points he mentioned before (not in either of those books, but in Tolkien's own letters, if I remember right), but I still found his post enjoyable and well-written. So what?

[skip spence]

Pitch, if you google any part of the post, the source comes up. It's an article by Catholic film critic Steven D. Graydanus. Claiming credit for other people's words is not ok, simple as. I hope Groin can edit his post with the proper quotations as the content is relevant to the thread.

[Pitchwife]

I see... well, you're right then, of course, that's disappointing. Groin, you really should put it all into quotes and name the source in your post, and I'll say let's forget about it and go on with the discussion, OK?

[garm]

- this book is interesting for several reasons - first, it's the last book published by Tolkien in his lifetime. It's also (mainly) a book of sheet-music, being musical settings to some of Tolkien's poems by Donald Swann. And it's also noteworthy for the set of notes by Tolkien at the rear of the book, on his poems A Elbereth Gilthoniel and Namarie. Tolkien writes:

"As a 'divine' or 'angelic' person Varda/Elbereth could be said to be 'looking afar from heaven'... She was often thought of, or depicted, as standing on a great height looking towards Middle-earth... and listening to the cries for aid of Elves (and Men) in peril or grief. Frodo and Sam both invoke her in moments of extreme peril. The Elves sing hymns to her. (These and other references to religion in _The Lord of the Rings_ are frequently overlooked)."

And writing of the palantir in the Tower Hills, Tolkien has this to say:

"The High Elves...journeyed to the Tower Hills at intervals to look afar at Eressea... and the shores of Valinor... the hymn [A Elbereth Gilthoniel] is one appropriate to Elves who have just returned from such a pilgrimage. No doubt Gildor and his companions, since they were going eastwards, wer Elves living in or near Rivendell returning from the palantir of the Tower Hills. On such visits they were sometimes rewarded by a vision, clear but remote, of Elbereth, as a majestic figure, shining white, standing upon the mountain Oilolosse..."

So, we have Elves and Men (and hobbits) praying to Elbereth, and Elves going on a pilgrimage to the Tower Hills. As Tolkien says: things like this seem often to be overlooked.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I repped that post in my half-slumber, Groin, as I thought it was well written. A bit too good was my second thought. You didn't actually write it, did you?

That makes two of us. Anyway, while Groin's points as such weren't actually new to me, he presented them well and gave some good examples of how exactly the religious symbolism was 'absorbed into the narrative', which is quite enough to make his post repworthy for me.
If I may take the Marian associations a little further (and maybe into not quite uncontroversial territory - WARNING: purely personal statement coming!):
There has been much debate on these Downs about the influence of both Tolkien's Catholic faith and his infatuation with pagan mythologies on the shaping of his Legendarium; and it just occured to me that, whether he was consciously aware of this or not, his devotion to Our Lady may be one of the points where the two influences are most easily reconciled - as in the figure of Mary (not the meek virgin and handmaiden, but the Queen of Heaven and ocean star, to use Groin's lovely quote) much of the best of ancient pagan Goddess worship has been absorbed into Christianity. Or to rephrase it from the opposite perspective: Tolkien's worship of Mary (and its reflections in the characters of Galadriel and Elbereth) is something that makes his (or any) Catholicism palatable to unregenerate heathens like myself. However much we may disagree about the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, we can both bow our knees to Our Lady (and who's to say we don't actually mean the same person?)...