Christopher Tolkien at it again....

[Mister Underhill]

Here's a blog post with the emails between the guy who made the button and Zazzle after this dustup started:

http://www.giro.org/2011/03/01/the-zazzle-emails/

[davem]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Here's a blog post with the emails between the guy who made the button and Zazzle after this dustup started:

http://www.giro.org/2011/03/01/the-zazzle-emails/

Zazzle has loads of Tolkien stuff available - or did last time I looked. The idea that people there would suddenly pick this one to ban without any kind of official/semi-official contact is hard to believe.

Being a regular reader of Techdirt I've lost count of the number of stories about lawyers threatening action on behalf of their clients, negative publicity ensuing, & the clients then issuing a statement that it had nothing to do with them......

Awaiting a report that they didn't try & stop the books, really, truly.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by davem

Zazzle has loads of Tolkien stuff available - or did last time I looked. The idea that people there would suddenly pick this one to ban without any kind of official/semi-official contact is hard to believe.

If the site has "loads" of stuff available, why would the Estate object to that one particular item, but no others?

I don't know anything about Zazzle, but sites like YouTube seem pretty arbitrary sometimes about what they block because of copyright concerns. Really, it seems rather unfair of you to lay this at the feet of the Estate with no evidence to back up your suspicion.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If the site has "loads" of stuff available, why would the Estate object to that one particular item, but no others?

If Zazzle has lots of Tolkien stuff (which it does http://www.zazzle.co.uk/tolkien+gifts ) then why would they remove just one of them unless 'someone' told them to?

Really, it seems rather unfair of you to lay this at the feet of the Estate with no evidence to back up your suspicion.

I posted links to the story.. And it was Zazzle themselves who stated that the Estate's lawyers had asked them to remove the product. And however this turns out the point of the thread - which is not in dispute - is the Estates's attempted censorship/banning of books.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by davem

And it was Zazzle themselves who stated that the Estate's lawyers had asked them to remove the product. And however this turns out the point of the thread - which is not in dispute - is the Estates's attempted censorship/banning of books.

The purpose of this thread originally was to discuss the Mirkwood book, but it was you who brought up the Zazzle story.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by davem

Zazzle has loads of Tolkien stuff available - or did last time I looked. The idea that people there would suddenly pick this one to ban without any kind of official/semi-official contact is hard to believe.

Being a regular reader of Techdirt I've lost count of the number of stories about lawyers threatening action on behalf of their clients, negative publicity ensuing, & the clients then issuing a statement that it had nothing to do with them......

Awaiting a report that they didn't try & stop the books, really, truly.

Davem, have you ever considered you might be juuust the teeniest, tiniest bit... let's say, over-involved with this issue? And maybe you need to just, you know, take a few deep breaths and relax? Just a thought

[davem]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Davem, have you ever considered you might be juuust the teeniest, tiniest bit... let's say, over-involved with this issue? And maybe you need to just, you know, take a few deep breaths and relax? Just a thought

Honestly - I never get 'over-involved' on this forum. I argue for fun sometimes, or to challenge myself & others, even to explore an idea, to pick it up & run with it & see where we can get to, or what other people think. I can't recall ever getting angry or annoyed during a discussion.

If people are bored with this one we can just stop?

[davem]

Do you know the most interesting thing about this badge thing - everyone, pro & anti, just believed it!

The 'anti-' side attacked the Estate for its intolerant, heavy handed behaviour, the 'pro-' side defended them while offering excuses, but no-one just came out & said 'There must be some mistake - they wouldn't behave like that - the story must be wrong!'

And maybe that should worry the Estate, because they now have that kind of reputation - people now believe that that kind of behaviour is perfectly typical of them.

Which, of course, is what happens when you repeatedly sic the lawyers on people. You may win the battles, but you lose the war.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by davem

Do you know the most interesting thing about this badge thing - everyone, pro & anti, just believed it!

Speak for yourself! I was withholding judgment, and I still am, because both the Estate's interpretation and the "why go after this one?" interpretation are still believable to me. If people are willing to believe that the Estate is being a censor in the case of the buttons, I think that has a lot more to do with the narrative built up about the Estate in particular, and authors' estates in general, well before the Estate had done anything to justify that interpretation, than because its actions are now fitting closer to that pattern.

Regarding the book--could it be the reason that this book was targeted over other Inklings books is because this one uses the fictional Tolkien that Tolkien himself created, who translated the Red Book of Westmarch from the Westron?

In other words, the other Inklings books that I've heard of may use Tolkien in a fantasy type setting, but I don't think they've yet tried doing it in the sense of "Tolkien translated all of these manuscripts and Middle-earth was real in some way, shape, or form." This isn't what the news sources have said, but it would give the Estate's case of "copyright infringement" something to stand on. Of course, this would open up a whole, huge can of worms, over what the difference is between an author and the author's own fictional representations of himself, the difference between fact and fiction, etc. But it certainly makes the Estate's actions appear more logical, if not necessarily justifiable.