The Valley Forge - WW LXXXVII - Admin Thread

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Oh I don't know if is unconscious but you have used he for KD & nightwatchman. and her for sweetheart. Now if that was more than a figure of speech (ie the KD will be a male player and the Sweetheart female then it adds a whole new dynamic to the game. Maybe should take advantage of the fact that male and female dwarves are hard to tell apart!

I am going to make no distinction of male and female players when the roles are decided. I aim to do it in a random manner and not choose anybody because I think they'll be good at a particular part. I called them a he and a she because that's how I have been picturing them in the storyline. I did not think how that would impact how I wrote my narratives. Hmph. Things are more complicated than I imagined.

I am thinking that I will make it so that the KD cannot outright announce his identity. The hints will crop up regardless, and that's fine. False hints may even arrive.

I am still thinking of possible additional gifted roles.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Folwren

I am thinking that I will make it so that the KD cannot outright announce his identity.

Does saying "my real name is Katy Davis"* count as announcing it outright?

*No, not really.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Folwren

I am going to make no distinction of male and female players when the roles are decided. I aim to do it in a random manner and not choose anybody because I think they'll be good at a particular part. . Things are more complicated than I imagined. .

Don't worry. You just have to state that using he/she in narrations shouldn't be taken as a clue to the actual gender of the players. They are just roles after all. If you don't end up making an executive decision about bringing someone back from the dead you will be doing better than me!!!

[satansaloser2005]

Oh, Galadriel, you have so much to learn about over hints. *hides from everyone from Glirdan's Greek game*

Anyway, sadly, I'm out for this round. I'm simply too busy, and playing on my phone doesn't work nearly as well as I'd like, so I'll be taking a game or two off. It sounds fun though!

[Kitanna]

I get off work an hour after the DL (should it be 3pm) and as my last game showed that's not very good for me. However, if the DL were to be 11 PM I'd have about five hours of game play and then a quick vote post before going to work in the morning. I'd like to play, but I'm not sure if I can. Please mark me as a maybe and I'll make a decision soon.

[Glirdan]

Hmmm, i'm definitely interested but my work schedule and rehearsal schedule is a little whack...sign me up with a question mark for now and I'll let you know

[Loslote]

This looks absolutely amazing, but I need a WW vacation. I might be following along, but my mind is far too frazzled to play right now.

[Ozban]

I would join, hope there's room for that yet.

[Folwren]

There is. Welcome, Ozban.

[A Little Green]

Ouch, this looks really good! Unfortunately I'm really busy at the moment and don't think it would be fair to myself or to my fellow players to join when my participation would either be very minimal or come on the expense of desperately needed sleep..

[Lhunardawen]

Why Foley, you never told me you're planning on modding a game - and the skipped one at that! I would love to play in your game, but I think I've had my fix (with my brain intermittently creaking in protest). Besides, I might be a bit busy for the next few weeks until school starts again.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

I would love to play in your game, but I think I've had my fix (with my brain intermittently creaking in protest). Besides, I might be a bit busy for the next few weeks until school starts again.

Same, except for me it's the opposite -my school and exas end in a few weeks.

[Folwren]

Hm....well... I am thinking I'll scratch the current list of players and see who can sign up. The best thing for me would be if we could start this game next weekend (five days or so), but I am aware that that gives VERY little time of gathering people. If we don't start this weekend, I cannot begin until two weeks after this weekend, which would then be approximately 20 days from now.

What is the general thought on that?

-- Folwren

[Pitchwife]

Hmm, this does indeed sound very promising. I'm not actually sure that I should play at this time (having a three months old puppy around who demands attention and is still prone to leaving malodorous protest notes all over the house whenever I spend too much time at the computer), but if the sign-up continues as sluggishly as it's been these past days, I'll be sorely tempted (especially with a 3pm CT = 9pm GMT DL, which would be pure candy for me on most Days) - so maybe you can sign me up with a question mark for the time being?

Anyway, a few questions/comments:

1. Does the KD count as an innocent or as a Forger in the tally - i.e. what happens when the village is down to one or two innocents, one Forger and the KD? (If I remember correctly, the 'saboteur' role Zil had in Eönwë's game counted as a wolf, so part of his job description was to get himself lynched along with his packmates.)

2. The above is closely connected with the following:

Originally Posted by Foley

I had thought the game could keep going, but it would be pointless as the night round would be obsolete because the King's Dwarf would stand against any more killing. So I guess at that point, the K.D. would be able to announce himself to the village and they'd kill the last member. But I'm kind of imagining that the members of the Forge would have figured out who the K.D. was by the time they're down to two. I think it'll be a pretty close game.

This situation is going to arise as soon as the next-to-last genuine Forger is lynched and his/her role revealed; at this point the last one will realize that their remaining 'packmate' has to be the KD and will kill him this very Night, before the KD can announce himself to the village. If the Night Watchman is still alive, the KD can try to get himself protected and reveal the next Day, otherwise it'll be game over, Forge wins.
Which means (unless I'm overlooking something) that the game is only winnable for the KD and the innocents if the NW survives long enough. Left to himself, without protection, the KD can't win.

3. Maybe this is just me, but I suggest you reconsider about the Forge gaining instant victory by killing the KD. I feel it's a little hard on the ordinary innocents to make the outcome of the game dependent on the survival of a single player, which is largely beyond their influence (especially under the conditions described above).

4. Will the KD be played by Bruce Dern? After all, Silent Running is his job description, isn't it?

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Hmm, this does indeed sound very promising. I'm not actually sure that I should play at this time (having a three months old puppy around who demands attention and is still prone to leaving malodorous protest notes all over the house whenever I spend too much time at the computer), but if the sign-up continues as sluggishly as it's been these past days, I'll be sorely tempted (especially with a 3pm CT = 9pm GMT DL, which would be pure candy for me on most Days) - so maybe you can sign me up with a question mark for the time being?

I can do that, especially as a lot of players have written me saying that they can't play due to scheduling. It may be a long time before this game actually gets started.

1. Does the KD count as an innocent or as a Forger in the tally - i.e. what happens when the village is down to one or two innocents, one Forger and the KD? (If I remember correctly, the 'saboteur' role Zil had in Eönwë's game counted as a wolf, so part of his job description was to get himself lynched along with his packmates.)

The KD counts as an innocent in the tally.

This situation is going to arise as soon as the next-to-last genuine Forger is lynched and his/her role revealed; at this point the last one will realize that their remaining 'packmate' has to be the KD and will kill him this very Night, before the KD can announce himself to the village. If the Night Watchman is still alive, the KD can try to get himself protected and reveal the next Day, otherwise it'll be game over, Forge wins.
Which means (unless I'm overlooking something) that the game is only winnable for the KD and the innocents if the NW survives long enough. Left to himself, without protection, the KD can't win.

Interesting thought and one that I had not considered.

Maybe this is just me, but I suggest you reconsider about the Forge gaining instant victory by killing the KD. I feel it's a little hard on the ordinary innocents to make the outcome of the game dependent on the survival of a single player, which is largely beyond their influence (especially under the conditions described above).

I put that clause in because it seemed like the KD had so much advantage over the Forges. But upon examining it, I realize that there is plenty of ways the KD might be knocked off and the Forges to regain their usual chances of winning. I will reconsider.

4. Will the KD be played by Bruce Dern? After all, Silent Running is his job description, isn't it?

I'm afraid I don't know who Bruce Dern is, so that reference went over my head.

Now, so far, there are nine names on the list and three of those are put down with question-marks. As I said above, lots of people have written saying they can't play for sometime - weeks or months - and I was wondering if it is advisesable to plan on waiting to start this game until at least some of these players are available? In the mean time, I can be reworking my idea and fine tuning it.

I think it'd be fine to keep this thread up. I like the conversation going on here and the suggestions you all are giving to me - I couldn't make it better without you. And also, if the thread remains up, people can keep signing up, however slowly. Just know, all you who have signed in, it might be a long time before the game actually starts. I'd like to know - are you alright with that?

I'd also like to know what's the minimum number of players? Twelve is what I have in mind, but I feel that might be boring. I'd like closer to fifteen or more. But we don't have more than six certain players, and twelve seems like a hard number to reach, much less fifteen!

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Foley

I'm afraid I don't know who Bruce Dern is, so that reference went over my head.

Ah, sorry, I thought the title of the game was a nod to this old sci-fi movie where Bruce Dern's character turns against his crewmates in order to save the last greenhouse in space. The ship's name is Valley Forge.

Originally Posted by Foley

I put that clause in because it seemed like the KD had so much advantage over the Forges.

But does he? OK, he knows who they are, but as has been discussed it would be unwise for him to out them right away; so his biggest advantage will be the power to sabotage the Night-kills by tipping off the Watchman, but the way you put it, there's quite an uncertainty factor built into this:

Originally Posted by Foley

At the end of each Day, he will send the moderator a PM which will be sent to the Night Watchman. In this PM, he will note down who he thinks the Forge might kill that night.

(Emphasis mine)
From my experience, minds may change more than once during a wolf pack's Nightly discussions, so the KD's success will depend on his ability to either pre-guess his packmates' leanings or subtly steer their decision making so that they choose to kill the right (=protected) player. It's all rather chancy, I think.

Originally Posted by Foley

Just know, all you who have signed in, it might be a long time before the game actually starts. I'd like to know - are you alright with that?

Don't know about the others, but it's fine for me (as long as it doesn't draw out to RPG or Paper Telephone dimensions).

Originally Posted by Foley

I'd also like to know what's the minimum number of players? Twelve is what I have in mind, but I feel that might be boring. I'd like closer to fifteen or more. But we don't have more than six certain players, and twelve seems like a hard number to reach, much less fifteen!

Much as I personally prefer small, handy villages, I think you want a pack of four wolves/Forgers for this (three real ones + the KD) so that the KD's cover isn't blown to soon, so I guess twelve would be the minimum, better something around fourteen to sixteen. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to be taking a WW withdrawal cure at the moment...
But to help things along a little bit, scrap that question mark as far as I'm concerned. I've just decided I don't want to miss this!

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Ah, sorry, I thought the title of the game was a nod to this old sci-fi movie where Bruce Dern's character turns against his crewmates in order to save the last greenhouse in space. The ship's name is Valley Forge.

Haha...no...I've never heard of it. It is a take off of something, but I'm not going to say what.

But does he? OK, he knows who they are, but as has been discussed it would be unwise for him to out them right away; so his biggest advantage will be the power to sabotage the Night-kills by tipping off the Watchman, but the way you put it, there's quite an uncertainty factor built into this.

From my experience, minds may change more than once during a wolf pack's Nightly discussions, so the KD's success will depend on his ability to either pre-guess his packmates' leanings or subtly steer their decision making so that they choose to kill the right (=protected) player. It's all rather chancy, I think.

You are right, and the more I consider the KD's role, the harder I realize it is, and I also realize how very little he may accomplish. The fact is, he may accomplish even less than a regular seer who at least has the protection of numbers, whereas the members of the Forge KNOWS he is one of their four or five.

Don't know about the others, but it's fine for me (as long as it doesn't draw out to RPG or Paper Telephone dimensions).

Ha! I hope not! I think I would quit then, too.

But to help things along a little bit, scrap that question mark as far as I'm concerned. I've just decided I don't want to miss this!

Awesome. I'm excited to have you.

[Mänwe]

Originally Posted by Folwren

During the day, they attempt to persuade their fellow dwarves to rise in a revolt against the king and take what is offered them from Lord Sauron. At night, they go forth and execute any who stand in their way, making examples of them for anyone else who wishes to stand against them.

So that'd make all the 'ordos' playing, loyal to Dáin..so even with their greatest threat in the 'King's Dwarf' slain (by them) they'd still need to be rid of the ouspoken loyalists ('ordos') in order to achieve supremacy and incite rebellion, so removing the insta win for the death of the 'King's Dwarf' at their hands wouldn't be too unplausable for the story?

So;

Perhaps the Forge might be rewarded some other way...on the death (by their hands) of the 'King's Dwarf' they're allowed a double execution perhaps?

..and on the talk of their being no seer and such, perhaps on the death of the 'King's Dwarf' by a lynch he passes on his knowledge/parts of about the Forge members, to his 'sweetheart' or something...?

~~~

For the next two weeks, the earlier deadline would be better for me. After which the later deadline would probably work best, but i'd busier. But you can count me in.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Mänwe

Perhaps the Forge might be rewarded some other way...on the death (by their hands) of the 'King's Dwarf' they're allowed a double execution perhaps?

Ah, I have an idea. The Sweetheart player won't like it, but so be it - what if, when the Forge Members kill the KD, they also kill the Sweetheart, as a revenge-ish sort of act.

As for the KD passing all his knowledge to the Sweetheart - I think that'd be a bit unfair, as then the sweetheart could come out the next day and say what she knows. I don't like restricting people by saying, "once the sweetheart knows all the secrets of the gang, she can't reveal and can't say what she knows" so I don't want to have the KD pass on his info. I am hoping that by the time the KD dies, he will have left enough of a trail behind him to incriminate at least one member.

This is going to be a hard game for whoever gets the part of the King's Dwarf.

For the next two weeks, the earlier deadline would be better for me. After which the later deadline would probably work best, but i'd busier. But you can count me in.

Welcome aboard.

[Folwren]

I thought of an idea for another gifted. Thought I'd put it here and see what you all thought.

A type of seer...but instead of finding out if anyone is a Forge member, he will only find out who the King's Dwarf is. So, at night, he'll send me a name by PM and I'll send back a PM saying either, "No, that person is not the K.D" or I'll send back something that says, "Yes, that person is the K.D."

In the story, I was thinking that that character could play in by one day stumbling upon the K.D. doing something that was obviously trying to foil the Forge, like leaving a message for the Night Watchman or something. The dwarf who stumbles upon him realizes he is not one of the Forge members and figures something is odd. Obviously, in the game, we know who all the characters are...

The K.D., I think, will know when he is identified by this character. Should I also tell the K.D. who this person is? Or should that be something that he has to figure out?

What sort of advantage will this give the innocents?

Do I need to think of another gifted?

-- Folwren

[Bom Tombadillo]

I've read bits of a good few archived WW games and at one time read all the way through the original, but I suppose it can't hurt to read through the full rules and will probably prevent some blunders.

Also, the KD-identifier seems . . . interesting. I'll let my elders and betters weigh in on balance.

[Mänwe]

I wouldn't kick and scream if it were included but I quite liked the original set up of limited gifted roles.

And hello to Bom!

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Oh, Galadriel, you have so much to learn about over hints.

That's true!, but my question was what is the limit of "saying it outright". I can say "monarch's messenger", and it's very obvious, but it's not saying it directly. Or you could describe the role. There are ways to say it outright without actually saying the word.