Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[Nogrod]

It looks like Rikae has really thought this out (well of course she has, but I'll say that just to honour her publicly).

We need some information at some point of the game, preferably later. And we know how to get it: our gifted goodies need to sacrifice themselves - and they all come with a prize.

Talking of those who seem to understand our situation, Aganzir and the phantom are okay with me: they seem to make sense and have a hang of our situation (even if I don't agree with their every statement). A cobbler or a wolf can make sense too, but I'm quite happy with them thus far. We need more clearheaded people like them around, especially in this game.

Also Lommy seems to make sense even if she is incorrect in thinking the seer is the prime target. As I said earlier, the lovers and the ranger are, because getting rid of them makes empty any hope of getting any information over the "killed by Night so therefore not a wolf" -cases.

Legate seems his verbiose-self which actually indicates nothing of his role.

A wolf(g)ang wouldn't probably have made those suggestion he made about the wolves willing to [MAJOR PART MISSING FROM HERE - ADDING IT TO THE NEXT POST: WHAT FOLLOWS IN THIS PARAGRAPH IS ABOUT BORO ALREADY AND NOT ANG ANYMORE] him. It's probably not enough to vote for lynching him toDay, but like some say, I'll be watching...

Originally Posted by Mith

People having fun? Outrageous! What do they think this is? A game? Pfft

Isn't that a bit like overdoing something here? And actually what I meant (and I guess some others did) was not that being or having fun is bad. Playing a game that was not fun would be miserable. But if all the game was banter about more or less unrelated topics I see it hard to call it a werewolf game. Random chatting is what one does in the messenger. (And no Mith, I'm not thinking about you as a prime example of that here. *cough Lottie/Shasta cough*


EDIT: X'd with a bunch of posts.
EDIT2: Added a correction in CAPITAL LETTERS...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

A wolf(g)ang wouldn't probably have made those suggestion he made about the wolves willing to [MAJOR PART MISSING FROM HERE - ADDING IT TO THE NEXT POST: WHAT FOLLOWS IN THIS PARAGRAPH IS ABOUT BORO ALREADY AND NOT ANG ANYMORE] him. It's probably not enough to vote for lynching him toDay, but like some say, I'll be watching...

Okay. I must have clicked something very wrong while typing as there clearly are like many sentences missing from here.

What I was trying to say about Ang and Boro is the following:

Ang probably wouldn't have made the suggestions on double-lynches or speculations about wolves willing to send one of them to Mandos if he was a wolf. Too attention-grabbing and wrong.

Boro says he has a Twitter-impression on my posts, I have an Fb-impression on him. It's not enough for me to vote for him toDay, but I'll be watching.


Sorry.

(I hate using a laptop with no mouse as it tends to do all kinds of pickings of it's own...)

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the phantom

1) There is absolutely no point to the Lovers hinting in any way towards themselves or even towards their partner, for it will be incredibly obvious once one of them comes back to life that he can be trusted, at which time he can say, "I'm so-and-so, and my partner is ______ !" and then bang, living and dead all know the identities of the two lovers. The Lovers should try and avoid death at any cost early on.

Like I said. Although as Rikae told us, there is a possibility that they both die before the one gets back - and the use of the knowledge about their identities isn't any advantage as they will both die then without any help from the wolves. The lovers help to us is that one of them goes and picks some info from Mandos and shares it here. Then they are gone.

2) The Seer should commit suicide right away.

Like I said in #40, in this game the seer should die rather early than late (before the lovers or the ranger), but hopefully not like toDay. In Mandos the seer can only dream of already dead people, so we'd do fine if the seer would get there packed with at least a few dreams.

3) Glorfindel should... um... I don't know. Commit suicide soon to gain double protections and give us a trusted source until the baddies are forced to flush a kill on him in order to re-dead him? Or stay alive as long as possible to be a late-game news bearer between the threads?

The ranger would be the most powerful visiting Mandos late in the game picking the maximum information and using her/his double-protections to a maximum effect in a small village.

4) Hunter should.... stay alive until a revived innocent can bring him a target from the Seer on the Dead Thread?

A good plan indeed! Especially with the illogical hunter.

5) Wolves and Cobblers- should kill the Lovers and Glorfindel and the Hunter, and perhaps leave the Seer completely alive? Should the Wolves kill the Cobblers? I realize the Cobblers can eat up the lynches late in the game and clinch the win with their votes, but I'd say these Cobblers are going to be particularly blind as they don't even know the score and whether or not it is possible to gain a sacrificial victory. They might be just as useful on the Dead Thread trying to gain real info there and giving the suspected living Wolves extra votes. Not to mention they could do Seer impersonations to keep between-thread info from being uncontested.

The wolves need the lovers and the ranger like now. I think it depends on the wolves - and how this game starts on them - whether they think they should pick the seer or whether the seer is less dangerous in here (if the seer never dies, no one's going to learn anything from anyone for sure - and the cobblers & wolves can run amok here). The cobblers might actully be more dangerous in Mandos than in here, at least early on - here they know nothing but in Mandos they might have better chances of getting the picture.

On tp's latter suggestions I think they were mostly overtly optimistic (not taking into consideration some obvious problems or rule-limtations), or then I just didn't understand some of them.

But this is a very good one everyone should at least think about:

Originally Posted by phantom

the Dead can indirectly pass information to the Living. The rules say that the narration will reveal each person who receives the extra Dead vote that day. What if the Dead agreed to always give their extra vote to whichever person the Seer dreamed to be innocent!! If we agree to this, then we could pass every innocent dream from the dead Seer to the Living

So if and when the goodies take control of Mandos, that indeed is a way to send a message of a known innocent - and the ranger can play nice "cat and mouse" with the wolves if they think they can pick the known innocent out during the Night.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

in this game the seer should die rather early than late (before the lovers or the ranger), but hopefully not like toDay.

I disagree. The seer is more powerful in Mandos (she can check out those whose alignment isn't known yet, or non-wolves suspected of cobblery) but as long as she stays here and dreams of the living, it's more even.

A good plan indeed! Especially with the illogical hunter.

And then? Maybe it's just me, but I thought we were going to lynch a known baddie, not wait for the hunter to die.

But this is a very good one everyone should at least think about: So if and when the goodies take control of Mandos, that indeed is a way to send a message of a known innocent - and the ranger can play nice "cat and mouse" with the wolves if they think they can pick the known innocent out during the Night.

I think that's pretty much impossible. The village has no way of telling when the dead start sending actual messages (as opposed to "gut feeling says X is innocent!").

That post makes me think a lot worse of Nog.

[Mithalwen]

Not under the radar more like a duck doing a lot of work under the surface. Doing a very whizzy spreadsheet. That confirms my earlier stated mistrust of lists...

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Agan

I think that's pretty much impossible. The village has no way of telling when the dead start sending actual messages

I'm not entirely certain about that. For instance, if you have an inkling of who the Seer might possibly be and that person dies, you should go ahead and point out your theory (especially if you can discover some sort of coded message or whatnot, I'm not the only person who does that sort of thing, am I?) and then treat future Dead-votes as a vindication of someone, assuming that the Seer is able to properly convince the Dead upon arrival.

Not to mention that a Seer could very well reveal outright, in which case we'd know all of his dreams EXCEPT the one he has the night he is killed, which could be passed back up to the Living via the proposed method (whoever receives the Dead-bonus the next day was the person the Seer dreamed as he died, UNLESS the Dead repeat a bonus for someone in which case the Seer found a Wolf his final night). In fact the Seer could even announce his intended dream before each night in case he is killed, yes? And if the following day the Dead do NOT give that person an extra vote, we know that individual is guilty.

Surely the plan is at least a bit useful in that situation, yes?

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Agan

I don't know what to think of Greenie. On one hand, she's being her usual (nit-picky) self towards me.

Hey! You of all people don't get to call me nit-picky! You were unclear, I asked a few questions. Clearer now, thanks.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hm, Agan is actually right... the thoughts she cites of Nog are most peculiar... although he is known for sometimes coming up with schemes overcombined up to the point of being Wolf-y... but yea, given all that... I am not going to vote him now, but watching for the time being...

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Trying to earn cuteness points, or what?

Same goes for you - see above

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Not under the radar more like a duck doing a lot of work under the surface. Doing a very whizzy spreadsheet. That confirms my earlier stated mistrust of lists...

Point taken.

Well... okay, even though there is not so much about it,

++Nessa

Of all the submarines, except for Mith (who now started posting), the one whose post was giving odd vibes to me.

I am pretty sure now some good posting starts, but I really have to go to sleep. So, vote well... and hope that we don't lynch a Seer or something.

EDIT: x-ed with Agan (you're welcome! - they say laughter prolongs life, so maybe they won't see you in Mandos still for a while), phantom, Shasta (yes, I was sure the real fun will begin just now, but alas, I really have to sleep) and LG. Good night!

[A Little Green]

Well past bed-time for me. I'm going to go with

++ Lommy

since she's the best lead I have. Usually I never suspect her and she's never evil. This time, on the other hand, she seems quite off to me. Nervous, playing easily, and over-emphasizing stuff (the cobbler paranoia, for example).

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

She had once called me "a hog on laughing gas" (when I was innocent), so I think it's not unfair if I call her in return "running like a headless chicken", because that's exactly what it seems like.

:------D
You have no idea how hard I laughed at that.

I like Legate.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

And regardless of the very last sentence, the paragraph about being paranoid with all the cobblers looks - well - cobblerish to me.

I'm inclined to agree. It looked like she was over-emphasizing it.

Erm? What exactly are you talking about?

As an innocent I can just ignore him and wait for the wolves or the rest of the village to take care of him. As a wolf, I wouldn't have such a privilege.

I don't know what to think of Greenie. On one hand, she's being her usual (nit-picky) self towards me. On the other hand, there are things I disagree with her on (namely Lottie and sally).

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

And then? Maybe it's just me, but I thought we were going to lynch a known baddie, not wait for the hunter to die.

Hmm... you're right, in case there is only one baddie the one coming back from Mandos can tell us of. But the possibility that we lose our seer and our ranger/lovers on the first Days so that there would be only one baddie-role to tell of sounds too depressing to focus on... so I was actually thinking about a situation nearer the endgame and more chances. So I totally overlooked that scenario. Anyway, probably not even a cobbler would dare to suggest that "let's lynch the hunter to let her/him take down the known wolf" as a way of a witty fooling of the villagers...

I think that's pretty much impossible. The village has no way of telling when the dead start sending actual messages (as opposed to "gut feeling says X is innocent!").

That is true - and I'm not suggesting that the living should just buy whatever comes from Mandos early on. I think I said something along the lines that "everyone should at least think about". Surely we can't trust the first extra vote sent from Mandos, or probably the second or third... but as time goes by the probability of the goodies running the Mandos increases (and people here are also better equipped to make sense of things). And once we get some decent information from Mandos then the extra-votes given start to be more or less reliable info indeed.


EDIT: X'd with what... a host of posts!

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

It looks like Rikae has really thought this out (well of course she has, but I'll say that just to honour her publicly).

But if all the game was banter about more or less unrelated topics I see it hard to call it a werewolf game. Random chatting is what one does in the messenger. (And no Mith, I'm not thinking about you as a prime example of that here. *cough Lottie/Shasta cough*
...

But it wasn't all the game was it? It was the first page of the first day when many were asleep or at work. If we all waited until there was something serious to say then we would never get started. I don't think it was all random chatting - Nerwen seemed to identify a confession from Loslote!. Later we may see significance in whom someone whose role we identify has name checked or not. Be able to discern whether someone's banter was the careless chat of a bored innocent or a cobbler's smokescreen. So I do think it is a bit early to get sanctimonious about playing style especially of those who made the effort to show up and get the ball rolling. As a wise man once said this isn't a professional werewolf league... chance remarks often give away more than a studious essay.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Agan

Phantom are you keeping in mind that the seer can only dream of dead players after her death?

What?! Seriously? *rereads*

Okay then... Yeah, that changes everything I'd say. Is the Dead-dream always about the Dead as well? It is, isn't it?

Well, so much for that then. If that's the case, then as usual the Wolves will kill the Seer on the very first Night if given the chance. BUT- what is different is that it should probably be much tougher to spot the Seer in the early going as there really isn't any need for him to leave clues, as he can always reveal after death so long as a Dead-Living transfer player is still alive to bring his dreams back. Should the Lovers and Glorfy be downed early, at that point I think the Seer would have little choice but to semi-out himself.

All right- off to work now! But I should be able to keep tabs a bit and post while at work. We'll see.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nessa Telrunya

And to move on to more productive matters.... This will be just as difficult for the wolves, yes? They won't know who it is they kill, so our information is equal.

Originally Posted by Nessa Wolfrunya, WW LXXXV

My hint was that if she knows something we don't, it's suspicious. After all, the wolves all know something we don't: who to kill.

Hmm...

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Brilliant in the sense of being dead and losing ....

Mith you know that's not what I meant.

Originally Posted by Rikae

One lover needs to be alive to bring the other back, so if the wolves manage to kill the second lover while the first is dead, both stay dead.

So the remaining lover should probably consider revealing only if the ranger is still alive.

Originally Posted by the phantom

What?! Seriously? *rereads*

Okay then... Yeah, that changes everything I'd say. Is the Dead-dream always about the Dead as well? It is, isn't it?

Hmm what do you mean by this?
Too bad though, it would've been great if your plan had worked. Now we need to think of something else.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

So the remaining lover should probably consider revealing only if the ranger is still alive.

I'm afraid the loads of different revelations will be one of our major headaches in this game. Remember, it may be we learn nothing from lynching or saving someone who reveal, whatever that person reveals.

Which actually brings me to a point of actually suggesting quite openly something to everyone as howe to play.

Innocents: do not make false revelations!

Sometimes innocents can make false revelations to try to protect someone they think is a gifted - or to some other ends - but in this game that would be foolish. If we could count on no innocents making a false-reveal we could at least narrow down the possibilities with all the influxing revelations that those doing it are either gifteds (and the ones they say they are), cobblers or wolves.


EDIT: X'd with Leg & Green

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Leg

Legate - that's me
Lommy - that's her.

Trying to earn cuteness points, or what?

Hmm. I seriously need some sleep soon, I'll vote in a while. My vote will go either for a submarine (though obviously not someone who hasn't been around) or Lommy, who I feel the worst about at the moment. I'm feeling more or less okay with Agan (gasp! I wonder how long it will take for me to change my mind on this one), Lottie (I didn't catch anything too cobblerish in her posts, looked more like overdone regular banter to me), and Phantom. Of the rest - most of them are making my head hurt. Sally is slightly fishy but I think I always call her that. Legate is wishy-washy but I know I always call him that.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, now Mith actually starts talking, so... I wonder. Anyway, I should go to sleep soon - out of the quieter ones, apart from Mith I might possibly go for Nessa, but not sure...

Originally Posted by A Little Green

her idea of a Bobbler

Cuute!!!

Originally Posted by LG

I'm not sure I approve of Nog and phantom advising the Gifted - or the said two (and Ang) also giving advice to the wolves..

Indeed, not sure if I approve of that either... but well, nothing more than that for now and I am simply looking forward to reading more from them in the future that will determine better decipher their intentions...

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Innocents: do not make false revelations!

Sometimes innocents can make false revelations to try to protect someone they think is a gifted - or to some other ends - but in this game that would be foolish. If we could count on no innocents making a false-reveal we could at least narrow down the possibilities with all the influxing revelations that those doing it are either gifteds (and the ones they say they are), cobblers or wolves.

Well, I second the fact that we have enough of confusion possible, but if we look at it purely rationally, apart from what you say, the situation you prefer works also so that people can determine that if somebody is not claiming to be a Gifted, then they are either Ordos, Cobblers or Wolves. Basically it only rules out one possible mistake, and it is, in fact, the most beneficial for the Wolves. This way, the WWs don't have to fear false reveals or such, and it is probably the last piece of puzzle they need (okay, they also need the Cobblers, but it is one more piece of puzzle). But if you make it a rule, then you basically clarify it for the Wolves by drawing a line: here are the Gifteds (and Cobblers) and here are the normal people (and Cobblers). No, I think it should not be a "rule" - but people should simply act reasonably.

Anyway, going to vote and sleep.

EDIT: x-ed with Agan, Greenie and Mith

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, now Mith actually starts talking, so... I wonder. Anyway, I should go to sleep soon - out of the quieter ones, apart from Mith I might possibly go for Nessa, but not sure...

Wonder what? That I would somehow anticipate that you would find me suspicious and "start talking" and hour or so before you would claim that I was being quiet? Ludicrous. I have been around because I now have a computer and no job as opposed to a job and no computer. There has just been more going on later as a quick glance at distribition of posts over time would show. This says a lot more about you than me.

[A Little Green]

Hello bunnies. I'm here at last, though won't be for long, I need to be off to bed. A few comments.

Originally Posted by Lommy

You're probably going to kill me for this, but I really do want to lynch the phantom. Both for making fun of me (as if I'd ever protect anyone with such a small head and long sleeves!) and because he's never been lynched on Day1 before. I say it'd be a nice idea to have a shot at him joining our little pack of fenrises. I could also lynch Lottie just for being a tp fangirl, but I guess that's just how she is...

Originally Posted by Lomz

And guess what my "twitter impression" is? I says you're a cobbler trying to send messages to wolves - "steering" sounds duspiciously close to "seering".

Okay I know this might seem paranoid with seeing cobblers everywhere, but there's three of them out there so I'm kind of freaked out with the idea of how many people are trying to mess up with our heads. I'm sure they will come up with some rather ingenious startegies (given their endless lifespan and ability to remain unidentified) and that does not make me happy at all. So, we should really watch out for them too. This is not deny the obvious - wolves should be our preference.

To tell you the truth, Lommy is creeping me out at the moment. Wanting to kill phantom and Lottie strikes me as awfully easy - also partly because I'm quite fine with both of them right now. Also, her idea of a Bobbler is pretty far-fetched, but I don't know if it's meant as fully serious or not. And regardless of the very last sentence, the paragraph about being paranoid with all the cobblers looks - well - cobblerish to me.

Originally Posted by Aganz

phantom. About the only reason I'm happy about not being a wolf (ie. I don't have to think of what to do with him).

Erm? What exactly are you talking about?

I'm not sure I approve of Nog and phantom advising the Gifted - or the said two (and Ang) also giving advice to the wolves..

Originally Posted by Agan

They have no way of knowing who's good or bad, except via a seer dream, but the longer it takes for the seer to die, the better. Until then, the dead don't know if they're talking with an ordo or a cobbler and can't trust each other with good reason. Therefore I see little risk of a dangerous dead union.

Wait.. The perspective of that last sentence is strange, considering that the topic I believe was innocents uniting in Mandos.

Originally Posted by Nog

A wolf(g)ang

I'm willing to give Nog a pass for this one.


EDIT: x-ed with Agan and Legs