Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Okay, so, here's what we know thus far....

Shasta- Seer!
Nogrod- Hunter!
Aganzir- Ordo
Glirdan- Cobbler!
Green- Ordo
Nerwen- Beren!
Lottie- Wolf!
Wilwa- Ordo
Legate- Wolf!
Lommy- Glorfindel!
Blind- Ordo
Sally- Ordo
Boro- Cobbler!
Mith- Ordo
Ang- Ordo
Fea- Ordo
Phantom- Ordo

I've never played with these three, so I'm having difficulty reading them, but we know that one is a Wolf, one is a Cobbler, and the remaining is Luthien.
elronds_daughter
Mänwe
Nessa

Shall we treat this as your pre-season picks? So you can change your mind about these picks at any time you wish and be able claim you were right. Or if you change your mind and happen to be wrong, you can always go back to your pre-season picks and claim "SEE! I told you! I had them right from the very beginning!"

Edit: crossed with Nog

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

First of all, this is going to be a bloody mess as the roles will not be revealed in death. We will actually have only two kinds of partial information for certain.

1) those killed at Night were "non-wolves" (and if the wolves decide to kill only the quiet, under-radar players at Nights, we gain little or no actual info from that).
2) those who come back from death are either a lover or the ranger aka. a goodie (and we'll lose those pretty soon anyway).

3) a player who in dying takes down another is, or rather was the Hunter– for what that's worth. Should be helpful to the Dead, anyway.
4) If anyone who looks at all cobblerish gets killed on Night One, we should definitely lynch Boro.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And the only way to get something resembling reliable info is that which the seer can give to a lover or the ranger in Mandos - but that in turn means that the seer must die before lovers or ranger

What about this?

Originally Posted by Teh Roolz

Every Night (beginning when there are at least 3 dead), the dead people vote for one among themselves . At the end of the vote it will be revealed whether the person counts for the wolves or the innocent. (In other words, they will be told whether a fellow dead person is a wolf or not.)

[Nogrod]

Oops... I have totally missed that last one. Has it been added at some point or have I just managed to ignore it? Although the ruling only tells the identity of a wolf among the dead - so it looks like cobblers will be told to be "innocents" and can thus still mess the information there.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

4) If anyone who looks at all cobblerish gets killed on Night One, we should definitely lynch Boro.

Hey, I've gotten a lot better at that, as I managed not to kill Pitch last game. Granted, he found a way to inform us that he was the cobbler, but still, I think I got better!

Nog's pinging on my suspicious radar. This is a real early, instant "twitter" impression, but definitely not a good impression. I'm not sure what to make of the "oops, have I missed that in the rules?" but his first post, while cutting straight to the point, looks too much like an attempt to start steering and spinning what Nog wants to spin.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I don't see it as wolf no. 1 shoring up wolf no. 2; but it does look a bit like finding a nice convenient protective elder brother...

Hahaha. That's cute. (Yes, I'm of the House of Finnwë.)

Legate talks about things in more length than seems necessary. Then again, he's always like that.

Originally Posted by Boro

So, first it's like, ok...what's the reason for the pessimism here? It's not all that different. When we make our lynch vote today, unless you've entered with known info, you're not going to know the person's role at the time you're voting. We just won't find out at the day's end, gotta wait a little longer is all.

I don't think he was being that bleak. I haven't played in a game like this before and my first thought was it's going to be a bloody mess. It makes more sense now that you explained why Nog's post rubbed you off, though (earlier it looked much more like an easy accusation).

Originally Posted by Ang

Might we want to engineer a double-lynching so that the Dead can start helping us with their deliberations earlier?

It won't be any help. They vote on the role reveals at night, anyway. If we lynch just one person today, they can start on night 3. If we do a double lynch, they still start on night 3, only there's one unknown more. We'd have to do a triple lynch today and it isn't worth it. Besides we won't get any information before one of the specials die, anyway. I think this plan smells of cobblery.

And because dead and living wolves can't communicate, I see no reason they should want one of them in Mandos. As if the dead were going to trust one another anyway.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

It won't be any help. They vote on the role reveals at night, anyway. If we lynch just one person today, they can start on night 3. If we do a double lynch, they still start on night 3, only there's one unknown more. We'd have to do a triple lynch today and it isn't worth it. Besides we won't get any information before one of the specials die, anyway. I think this plan smells of cobblery.

And because dead and living wolves can't communicate, I see no reason they should want one of them in Mandos. As if the dead were going to trust one another anyway.

Well, I'm glad you scrutinised my first suggestion better than I had done (it is indeed pretty useless), but I'm afraid it was made in good faith. I've never been a cobbler (at least, not officially), and don't really know how I'd handle the role (I feel it would irritate my pride)...I'd much rather be suspected of being a proper carnivore, much more exciting

I do feel you dismiss my second point too quickly though. A union of dead Elves who trusted each other with good reason could do the wolves real damage (as Gifteds who recognise each other have managed to do in the past). Cobblers are all very well, but they don't really know who they're helping; a wolf, especially if they were sacrificed in such a way that they looked very convincing, could do much more informed damage.

Then again, my kinsmen have probably been the most prone to wolf-hanging of all wolves, so perhaps I'm judging a less pathologically devious pack by my own standard...

I feel remarkably uncommitted in terms of real suspicion, and indeed sense that this feeling is general. I see I'm not alone in quite wanting to lynch Legate to make things a bit less hardline, but kicking him upstairs into Mandos won't do much good in that direction anyway.

I'm quite keen on finding out about the inside of Mandos, in fact; I'm struggling with the urge to volunteer myself for the 'great adventure'...never before have I felt so Elven. Voting for myself would be precisely the opposite of rationality (which I find appealing), while avoiding the exact Nilpaurion cliche because of our unique plight. But I will, at the moment, resist. I wouldn't want any of you to think I was a cobbler, or even a coward.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I'm quite keen on finding out about the inside of Mandos, in fact; I'm struggling with the urge to volunteer myself for the 'great adventure'...never before have I felt so Elven. Voting for myself would be precisely the opposite of rationality (which I find appealing), while avoiding the exact Nilpaurion cliche because of our unique plight. But I will, at the moment, resist. I wouldn't want any of you to think I was a cobbler, or even a coward.

Oh resist a while.. don't want to be the first to arrive at a party...

[the phantom]

Okay, I'm here! Time to actually get a handle on the rules and roles I'd say.

I have spent a grand total of... oh... five minutes considering tactics and such. I planned to dedicate a good deal of time to it during the first Night, but I was run ragged from dawn until dusk. So, I'm going to say some things and please tell me if my assumptions are missing a key point of this match.

1) There is absolutely no point to the Lovers hinting in any way towards themselves or even towards their partner, for it will be incredibly obvious once one of them comes back to life that he can be trusted, at which time he can say, "I'm so-and-so, and my partner is ______ !" and then bang, living and dead all know the identities of the two lovers. The Lovers should try and avoid death at any cost early on.

2) The Seer should commit suicide right away.

3) Glorfindel should... um... I don't know. Commit suicide soon to gain double protections and give us a trusted source until the baddies are forced to flush a kill on him in order to re-dead him? Or stay alive as long as possible to be a late-game news bearer between the threads?

4) Hunter should.... stay alive until a revived innocent can bring him a target from the Seer on the Dead Thread?

5) Wolves and Cobblers- should kill the Lovers and Glorfindel and the Hunter, and perhaps leave the Seer completely alive? Should the Wolves kill the Cobblers? I realize the Cobblers can eat up the lynches late in the game and clinch the win with their votes, but I'd say these Cobblers are going to be particularly blind as they don't even know the score and whether or not it is possible to gain a sacrificial victory. They might be just as useful on the Dead Thread trying to gain real info there and giving the suspected living Wolves extra votes. Not to mention they could do Seer impersonations to keep between-thread info from being uncontested.

And now to read the posts I've missed....

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Lommy

You're probably going to kill me for this, but I really do want to lynch the phantom. Both for making fun of me (as if I'd ever protect anyone with such a small head and long sleeves!) and because he's never been lynched on Day1 before.

Love you too, dear.

And quite honestly, from a tactical perspective I am attempting to think through whether or not an Ordo should even bother fighting any sort of tide that comes his direction. If one is not gifted, should one fight at all, considering there are Lovers and Glorfindel to protect? But it is so very counter to my nature, and I greatly prefer to exit via Wolf-kill. Bleh.

The idea that I won't be out of the game at all even after death and such- Tell me, is anyone else struggling greatly with how to react? I feel extremely.... not pressured. Almost detached even.

[Aganzir]

Shasta, Lottie, phantom, Glirdan, Nerwen, Ang, Mith
These people filled page 1 with banter (I'm the most okay with Mith because she was posting at stupid-o'clock and Ang because he only posted once). Statistically, there are two baddies in this group. I usually loathe statistics, but I don't like the fact that it took 36 posts to get to anything serious.

GUILTY
Anguirel. Double lynch plan which looked reasonable at first glance but doesn't help us at all. His tone is more innocent than his words, though.
phantom. About the only reason I'm happy about not being a wolf (ie. I don't have to think of what to do with him).
Lottie. Doesn't sit quite right with me. Plus she bantered for four hours.
Boro. I don't really like his casting suspicion on the first person to post some substance. He explained it better later, but it still seems too easy.
Shasta. "Should know better than to banter with the Mistress of Youtube" but does it anyway.

INNOCENT
Nerwen. Amuses me. I'm okay with her for now.
Lommy. I like her plan of lynching phantom. I also like her. I'm not sure I've ever played against Wommy yet, but she always seems to give me innocent vibes (except the times we argue ).
sally. Guess what? I think she looks good. (I'm about as surprised about this as about trusting Mac in last game.) And I like her PopSicles point.
Mith. Nothing alarming so far, but I know how good a wolf she is. Apart from that, she's entertaining.

EITHER
Legate. Too verbose to my liking but could go either way. I have him down as a cobbler till he says his points with fewer words.
Nogrod. Raised good points which tells us nothing whatsoever about his role. He actually kind of creeps me out... but I don't know.
Glirdan. Very little to go on, but I like him the most in the chatty group.
Mänwe

WHERE?
Fea
BG
Nessa
wilwa
ed
Green (answer: in my kitchen, just made caramelized bananas. This keeps her from receiving my vote today.)

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

[Mith. Nothing alarming so far, but I know how good a wolf she is. Apart from that, she's entertaining.

How good? Rubbish as any fule kno.... Aim to entertain... may work on being alarming..and I suppose I shall have to take a more serious look at the more serious posts before it gets much later...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

How good?

You were a brilliant alpha in my first ever game as a wolf! (Even though you revealed out of boredom. )

[Nessa Telrunya]

Well, good Day, and many excuses for my absence!

And to move on to more productive matters.... This will be just as difficult for the wolves, yes? They won't know who it is they kill, so our information is equal.

Aaand, that's all I've got. It's better than math for a first post though, huh? We all know where that went Not to mention the dead thread would probably break my calculator.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Nessa Telrunya

Well, good Day, and many excuses for my absence!

And to move on to more productive matters.... This will be just as difficult for the wolves, yes? They won't know who it is they kill, so our information is equal.

.

Don't be silly, the wolves know not to kill each other! And even if they help lynch a cobbler it isn't a disaster. It is a perfectly valid tactic for a cobbler to take a bullet for the pack..especially if they can continue to cobble in Mandos without risk of being denounced. When there are so few knowns how much easier for a cobbler to pose as a misguided innocent. And there are three of them.

At the moment the wolves know something about 2 others. On the side of the angels there are also three people who know something but only about one other person each. Don't underestimate the situation.

[Mithalwen]

Brilliant in the sense of being dead and losing .... rather like when surgeons call an operation a technical success :S Or when my dear dad was told that his new boss was "outstanding in his field" and answered that the field was presumably one where useless gits were irritating as well as incompetent. Heigh ho..