Tolkien Estate blocks new Tolkien book

[Nerwen]

[Note: replying to a deleted post]

Originally Posted by davem

And I think that's what's gotten us all a long way down a very slippery slope with lots of nasty sharp rocks waiting at the bottom. There are constant attempts to extend the term & nature of 'Copyright' - some are demanding that copyright to be up for sale to the highest bidder & extended indefinitely, so that companies could purchase copyrighted material & keep it out of the public domain forever. That would be be concerning enough if we were dealing only with works of art, but when it includes personal letters & documents, then the danger to society is immense.

As I said in my first post, there are situations when it would clearly would be vital for private documents to be made public, and where this should override all considerations of copyright and privacy. If there isn't any legal provision in such a case, then there certainly ought to be. But that doesn't mean those considerations shouldn't otherwise exist. You apparently see this as an "all or nothing" deal; I don't. (I'd like to use the term "slippery slope" to describe your argument here, but, heck, you beat me to it!)

Still, Davem if society collapses into a bloody dictatorship as a result of people not being automatically able to read each others' diaries without permission, you can always blame me.

Originally Posted by davem

Actually, no, it must be something beyond the range of silly but a bit embarrassing, because I doubt the authors & publishers of this book would have any issue leaving out material like that. Let's remember they have spent years researching & writing a scholarly work about Tolkien's brother & brought it right to the point of publication & clearly feel that the story cannot be told without the inclusion of this material. The Estate are making out this is just 20-odd pages out of 300 & its no big deal to remove it. The authors, after all their hard work feel that without it the book is missing an element so vital that there is no point publishing it. If I step back from an attitude of 'Oh, its the TOLKIEN Estate so there can't possibly be anything bad in what they're doing here' & look at this objectively, I see very big. very rich organisation preventing the publication of a serious work of scholarship because it contains information said very big, very rich organisation does not want in the public domain. That may just be material which is a bit embarrassing rather than deeply scandalous, but stopping this book going ahead for that reason is a bit of a scandal in itself (IMHO)

I'm sorry, but look, unless there's something you haven't told us, you don't have any evidence for this, have you? Just your own conjectures. As far as any of us know, this is just a straight copyright issue. And as far as I'm concerned, you and I have been talking about a purely hypothetical situation.

Once again, I'm not even trying to defend Tolkien Estate here. I'm certainly not taking the attitude that 'Oh, its the TOLKIEN Estate so there can't possibly be anything bad in what they're doing here'. I've already said it sounds like they may well be being pointlessly obstructive. I just think it's also possible to look at things "objectively" without making a foray into what, if you'll forgive me for saying this, is starting to look rather like borderline conspiracy-theory territory. (More in the phrasing than anything else, though– cf the passage I bolded.) And anyway, as I've said several times already, I do not believe that a moral duty exists to make any and all material public. It just depends.

Again, from my point of view the possible ethical violation here lies in giving permission and then withdrawing it for no good reason, wasting the authors' time and effort in the process.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

I noticed that one of the authors has posted a comment here:

http://www.tolkienguide.com/modules/...ode=0&start=10

In particular, they say:

"We wanted to include various letters in the book, some from members of Ronald's family, or failing that to give some account of their contents to illustrate how close and loving the family was and what they talked to each other about. This has been the sticking point that it has not been possible to overcome thus far.

I should also point out that the Estate have not been demanding money for permissions or anything like that."

AND

"The publication of the book had to be cancelled as there was not time to make further changes to the book and get it printed and bound in time for the launch. What happens in the future I really don’t know. Only time will tell."

So the book may still be published in the future.

The problem the Estate has is the publication of the letters - either in their full form or in paraphrased form.

Some have suggested that it is not a violation of copyright to paraphrase material - but that depends. For example, it is not a violation of copyright to do a 1000 word paraphrase of The Lord Of The Rings, but it would definitely violate copyright to do a 1000 page paraphrase of The Lord Of The Rings, because that would simply be an obvious rewrite of the book, which most definitely would not be allowed!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

For example, it is not a violation of copyright to do a 1000 word paraphrase of The Lord Of The Rings, but it would definitely violate copyright to do a 1000 page paraphrase of The Lord Of The Rings, because that would simply be an obvious rewrite of the book, which most definitely would not be allowed!

And yet, I'm sure I've read quite a few fantasy novels that fit that description pretty closely...

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

(...) Again, from my point of view the possible ethical violation here lies in giving permission and then withdrawing it for no good reason, wasting the authors' time and effort in the process.

The Estate notes that ADC agreed not to publish the letters or paraphrase them, and then did the latter anyway. I'm wondering why anyone was given access to this material in the first place -- mistake on someone's part? Did party A assume something party B had not actually agreed to?

It seems possible that this material was provided as research to generally help with an accurate description of familial relationships -- without however using it in a very specific way, such as publication or close paraphrasing, noting the Estate's statement includes...


'... that were reproduced virtually verbatim.'

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galin

The Estate notes that ADC agreed not to publish the letters or paraphrase them, and then did the latter anyway.

Sorry, I should have read that more carefully.

Originally Posted by Galin

I'm wondering why anyone was given access to this material in the first place -- mistake on someone's part? Did party A assume something party B had not actually agreed to?

Well, it happens. Or perhaps they adopted a "write now, get permission later" approach since they had little idea at the outset what material they would end up including in the final version anyway. It's not an uncommon shortcut in some fields (don't know about biography), but it can lead to grief.

[Mithalwen]

Only time now to answer the easy point, Galin, the access issue is explained simply by the fact that copyright does not go hand in hand with ownership of the physical object. Copyright unless transferred belongs to the writer (unless they are commissioned or employed). So with a letter which by its nature usually is parted from its writer, the copyright stays with the writer and the manuscript goes to the recipient who is the legal owner of the artefact but has no right to publish the contents. So in this instance Hilary's descendent are the legal owners of the letters and of course may show them to whomsoever they wish. However noone may publish the letters without the consent of the estate. So the estate has no control over access to this material but it does over publication.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galin

The Estate notes that ADC agreed not to publish the letters or paraphrase them, and then did the latter anyway.

I should note that I'm not sure exactly when ADC agreed to this, but that in any case they appear to have agreed at some point, and yet paraphrased the letters anyway. And so far at least, no one from the publishing company has spoken to this (that I know of).

That said, I don't know that the Estate ever agreed to using these letters in the specific ways that they object to in their statement, thus my...

It seems possible that this material was provided as research to generally help with an accurate description of familial relationships -- without however using it in a very specific way, such as publication or close paraphrasing, noting the Estate's statement includes '... that were reproduced virtually verbatim.'

Ah didn't see your post Mithalwen... thanks for the information.

[Mithalwen]

Galin I think that my cross post will answer that point. The Estate would not have provided access then quixotically withheld permission. Access to the letters was not theirs to grant. If you look at the Trust accounts you will see that some correspondents have returned or bequested their letters from JRRT to the estate but most letters he wrote will have stayed with the recipients as is the normal course of things. Now an interesting question might be if when a letter comes up for sale and it is photographed for sale say on E-bay if copyright is infringed if the contents can be read. NB None of the Downer legal eagles should take that as instruction since I haven't a bean!

Must pop out and then decide if I can persuade a certain terrier to yield his rat

[Galin]

Yes it did Mithalwen, thanks!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

If you look at the Trust accounts you will see that some correspondents have returned or bequested their letters from JRRT to the estate

For some reason I've thought for most of this discussion that that's what happened with these particular letters, but I'm not sure why, come to think of it.

This is now starting to sound to me like a bit of a storm in a teacup.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

This is now starting to sound to me like a bit of a storm in a teacup.

Well, unless you've spent the last few years researching & writing a book...

Actually, I've been looking into the Estate's attitude a bit more, & I'm still not sure whether this is about privacy or pettiness:

Christopher Tolkien owns all copyrights to his father's works and the Tolkien Estate has an official editorial team that sifts through Tolkien’s paperwork and releases new sets of words from time to time.

Lúthien say she must tread carefully though when it comes to the words they publish and worries about legal issues should she include them in her dictionary because the Tolkien estate are very strict about their use.

The Tolkien estate has taken people to court in the past, most notably author Michael Perry for his book Untangling Tolkien: A Chronology and Commentary for The Lord of the Rings. Wired magazine reported back in 2001 how "Elfconners", the name given to those involved with Tolkien's unpublished writings, had acted as "informal copyright police" and attempted to prevent publications by other linguistic scholars.http://www.reghardware.com/2010/11/1...eks/page6.html

Still, the Elvish scene is riven by all-too-human controversy. In 1999, Fauskanger received an email from an associate that included scans of two Quenya texts by J.R.R. Tolkien: unpublished translations of the Lord's Prayer and "Ave Maria." After writing a dense analysis of the texts, which are some of the longest Quenya writings by Tolkien known to exist, Fauskanger sent his 60-page manuscript to Christopher Tolkien for feedback. He also asked if he could publish a facsimile of Tolkien's original handwritten texts along with his own work. In return he got a curt letter from Cathleen Blackburn, the lawyer for the J.R.R. Tolkien Estate Limited, which continues to manage Tolkien's literary properties. Blackburn told Fauskanger that he could not legally disseminate his analysis, let alone a facsimile. Old flame wars on the TolkLang list were rekindled: Can you copyright an invented language or just particular texts in that language? Fauskanger believes he was well within the boundaries of fair use, but the Norwegian has no desire to alienate the estate. He just wants to publish an exceptionally obscure text in a tiny journal for no money.#The issue is compounded by the fact that a tremendous amount of Tolkien's linguistic material remains unpublished and in the hands of a fan cabal. In the early 1990s, the estate made thousands of pages of Tolkien's notes available to a handpicked crew of linguists known loosely as the Elfconners. The group includes a NASA scientist named Carl Hostetter and a Berkeley record store clerk named Arden Smith. After promising not to share the material with others, the Elfconners were supposed to prepare and publish at least a portion of these writings. But a full decade after the Elfconners first received copies from Christopher Tolkien, the clique has published only a few early lexicons in their increasingly irregular journals - a situation that recalls nothing so much as the Dead Sea Scrolls controversy. To make matters worse, the Elfconners have behaved as informal copyright police, pressuring other linguists not to publish their dictionaries and grammars. "It's against all principles of scholarship and decency for one scholar to try to use the law to prevent another scholar from publishing," says David Salo, who has yet to publish his 366-page analysis of Sindarin for fear of an estate suit. Unfortunately, all the Elfconners approached by Wired turned down requests for interviews. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9...ic=&topic_set=

As has been pointed out previously this isn't the first time the Estate has prevented publication of a book which has gotten a very long way towards publication before suddenly deciding they don;t want it to go ahead (Michael Drout was about to publish Tolkien's translation of Beowulf originally working with the Estate's permission - which was then withdrawn.)

I'm not saying the Estate is behaving any better or worse than other copyright holders who regularly use copyright in a heavy-handed way, either to protect their privacy (a -mis-use of the spirit if not the letter of that law) or just to assert their rights over the material - even when it would make absolutely zero difference to them if the material was made available. Probably they aren't. But that doesn't make it right, it only makes it legal.

[Mnemosyne]

Since I'm currently investigating issues surrounding access to those Tolkien manuscripts that currently exist in libraries (which by necessity also deal with copyright and the huge documentary editing project that is Christopher Tolkien's life), this whole kerfluffle is particularly timely. Because I'm still in the early stages of research, suffice it to say that I find the differences between Marquette University's access policy and the Bodleian's (which has been the Estate's repository of choice, although some additional LotR-based materials have made their way to Marquette) fascinating.

I just wanted to butt in to say that Fauskanger's analysis of the Our Father and Hail Mary did make their way up on his site and can be downloaded into a nice, hefty, 67-page Word file. His introductory remarks to the Quenya course also contain arguments about why you can't copyright a language, which I first read entirely ignorant of their context. But if they were in fact C&D'd I doubt they'd be up there.

And since the publication of the Wired article, Vinyar Tengwar and Parma Eldalamberon have come out with quite a few more issues, both new grammatical information and vocabulary--including Tolkien's sexy wordlist (turns out the Elves have a word for "hermaphrodite"). But they still hold the monopoly and will continue to publish at their own pace.

This is not at all, of course, to negate davem's point--namely, that this isn't the first time this has happened, and that the Estate's copyright policies have led to a lot of angst on the part of honest scholars. I just wanted to update some of the information in the article.

I hope to return to this thread when I have more information, if I'm not daunted away by it all first.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by davem

As has been pointed out previously this isn't the first time the Estate has prevented publication of a book which has gotten a very long way towards publication before suddenly deciding they don;t want it to go ahead

I don't think they "suddenly decided" anything.