Tolkien Estate blocks new Tolkien book

[davem]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

More to the point is whether the suppression of scandalous, or at least embarrassing, facts is "what is being done here".

Ok - 'personal' stuff - for which I base my arguments on the publisher's statement:

Despite many revisions and changes made at the insistence of The Tolkien Estate it appears that The Tolkien Estate will seek to take court action to prevent the release of this book regardless. Everyone involved in the publication has worked hard to meet the requests of The Tolkien Estate time and time again, however it would be misleading to release a Biography on Hilary Tolkien without proper reference to his close relationship with his brother.

So, unless the material in question is an exchange of letters between the brothers each arguing that the other one has the cooler looking mustache, we're talking about 'personal' information which the Estate does not want in the public domain, & if that material in question was completely bland then the Estate would not care if it was out there, & the writers/publishers would not feel that the book could not be published without it.

I could (were I that way inclined) argue that I seem to be the only party even attempting to ask what the nature of this material is - no-one else seems even vaguely interested. And that is something that has puzzled me all through this thread - why is no-one else even curious about what it could be that the Estate feels is so unnacceptable that it will threaten to take a tiny publisher to court to prevent the publication of 20 pages of a book that would probably have a print run of no more than a few thousand copies & why would said tiny publisher & authors feel that the excision of 20 pages out of 300 would effectively so ruin the book that they would withdraw it altogether rather than simply cut that bit?

The responses to my posts seem to be sum-upable as 'stop suggesting all this 'dodgy' stuff about the family - they have a right to their privacy', but no-one is even attempting to get at what the issue might be. There are letters which the Estate will not allow to be quoted - or paraphased - & they are requesting 20 pages of the book concerning this material be removed. And no-one seems the slightest bit curious about the whole thing. No-one seems any more bothered about it than to state 'well, they are being a bit obstructive'. And again, no-one seems to have any issue with the way Copyright is being used to stifle creativity & the dissemination of information- Tech dirt has a nice piece about the subject today http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...opyright.shtml

Copyright is being used to prevent a work of scholarship being published, because the owners of the copyrighted material do not want it in the public domain. Why not - Do they (a) intend to publish said material themselves? Fine - when? Do they (b) feel that it should not be made public at all? Fine - why?

My argument all along has been that (as far as I'm concerned) preventing the publication of a work of scholarship is a serious matter (& I'm fairly certain Tolkien himself would agree with that statement - even though he might not approve of the publication of this particular work - who knows (certainly not us now....)) & requires more than the vague statement 'Its our stuff, so nerrrr!'

I'm actually very angry about this behaviour on the part of the Estate - anyone who prevents books being published better have a very good reason - & I don't think the Estate has provided one.

[Bêthberry]

EDIT: I'm glad to see davem's posts have been restored.

Originally Posted by nerwen

. . . (I will say, though, that I find your equation of demanding the removal of material from a book with burning every copy of it to be a fairly notable bit of hyperbole.)

More to the point is whether the suppression of scandalous, or at least embarrassing, facts is "what is being done here". Now, as far as my memory of it goes* you spent the thread talking yourself into being totally convinced it was– you started out with an "if" and ended up with a "must"–

I do believe you've met your match, davem.

Originally Posted by davem

. . . if that material in question was completely bland then the Estate would not care if it was out there, & the writers/publishers would not feel that the book could not be published without it.

Not necessarily. There could well be a principled insistence that any aspect of personal lives, especially those which have no immediate, direct bearing on literary concerns, is of no concern to readers. It doesn't matter whether the information is positive, embarassing, scandalous, or banal. The point is simply, any and all personal information. And the authors could feel that it is important to produce a picture of normal family life that has been omitted from other bios. It doesn't have to be nefarious.

I could (were I that way inclined) argue that I seem to be the only party even attempting to ask what the nature of this material is - no-one else seems even vaguely interested. And that is something that has puzzled me all through this thread - why is no-one else even curious about what it could be . . .

Well now, I can guess what that "m" stands for on your screen name, davem--martyr.

Actually, as I have stated previously, anyone who attended Oxonmoot has seen some of this stuff, so our curiousity is satisfied. *imagine winking smilie here as I've used up my quota of smilies*

. . . but no-one is even attempting to get at what the issue might be. There are letters which the Estate will not allow to be quoted - or paraphased - & they are requesting 20 pages of the book concerning this material be removed. And no-one seems the slightest bit curious about the whole thing. No-one seems any more bothered about it than to state 'well, they are being a bit obstructive'.

I guess you are that way inclined. (see above quote) *imagine rolled eyes here*

My argument all along has been that (as far as I'm concerned) preventing the publication of a work of scholarship is a serious matter (& I'm fairly certain Tolkien himself would agree with that statement - even though he might not approve of the publication of this particular work - who knows (certainly not us now....)) & requires more than the vague statement 'Its our stuff, so nerrrr!'

I'm actually very angry about this behaviour on the part of the Estate - anyone who prevents books being published better have a very good reason - & I don't think the Estate has provided one.

There is an inherent contradition or conflict in the Estate, as no one has explained what to do should there be a genuine literary reason for publishing something when the holder of the copyright also has a personal vested interest in withholding the information. This is also the reason why biographies or letters which are "authorised" come, whether justified or not, with at least a wiff of suspicion. This pertains to all cases and not simply the one we are discussing here.

And now, back to my previous statement that I shall have nothing further to say because I have nothing new to add. *insert smilie laughing at myself*

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Not necessarily. There could well be a principled insistence that any aspect of personal lives, especially those which have no immediate, direct bearing on literary concerns, is of no concern to readers. It doesn't matter whether the information is positive, embarassing, scandalous, or banal. The point is simply, any and all personal information. And the authors could feel that it is important to produce a picture of normal family life that has been omitted from other bios. It doesn't have to be nefarious.

And yet, you went to the authors' talk at Oxonmoot because you wanted to to know about the personal lives of members of the Tolkien family. How many of us have read the biographies, the letters & the accounts of those who knew Tolkien? All 'personal information'. And if this book had seen the light of day, how many of us would have bought it?

Actually, as I have stated previously, anyone who attended Oxonmoot has seen some of this stuff, so our curiousity is satisfied. *imagine winking smilie here as I've used up my quota of smilies*

Ok - would you mind posting some of the stuff you heard there? Unless you think the Estate might take action

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

And yet, you went to the authors' talk at Oxonmoot because you wanted to to know about the personal lives of members of the Tolkien family.

Hmm. Do you have access to my inner motivations? Are you sure this was the reason I attended the session? After all, it was one of three sessions and I might have simply found this session the lesser of, say, for want of a more apt description, three evils. Or maybe I was curious to see the author of Black and White Ogres. Or maybe I attended it because most of my Downer buddies also attended it and at that time of the morning we relied on each other for mutual support, stimulation, and decisions.

Ok - would you mind posting some of the stuff you heard there? Unless you think the Estate might take action

When I attended the session, I agreed to respect the conditions which the author laid out for us, which was not to reproduce any of the materials. I will continue to respect her request and my word, irrespective of any subsequent events or insinuations.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

When I attended the session, I agreed to respect the conditions which the author laid out for us, which was not to reproduce any of the materials. I will continue to respect her request and my word, irrespective of any subsequent events or insinuations.

But haven't things changed? Wasn't that request made because the book was due out & the authors didn't want any spoilers pre-publication? Obviously I'm not going to ask you to risk being dragged through the courts by the Estate (or 'THE ESTATE' as I think we can all agree to call it from now on) but if you felt that getting the truth out there was important enough...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

But haven't things changed? Wasn't that request made because the book was due out & the authors didn't want any spoilers pre-publication?

That was not the condition which the author asked us to respect. Nothing has changed.

As I said, I have nothing more to add to the discussion.

[Angie G]

I have been away from the discussions re Wheelbarrows for some time and, although I will not enter into conversation, there are a couple of things I would like to state.

All the material that we planned to go into the book was sent to TE with the first draft. There is nothing in that material that reflects badly on any member of the Tolkien family, indeed, we had every intention of using it to show the loving relationship of the two brothers. This was why I was asked to write it - to show the relationship. Some of the research into their respective lives and the lives of their friends and relations shows quite clearly the influences around JRR that seeped into his writing and into his art work.

Neil and I, on the advise of our publisher - at the request of TE - took out particular references to living family. This was quite correct and did not impune on the raison d'etre of the book.

What prevented publication was, in effect, the belief on the part of TE that we were not to refer IN ANY WAY to any fact, feeling, comment, belief or incident that was referred to in any letter by JRR. As the book was about his relationship with his brother, the situatiion became untenable.

It is very sad in many ways, but one of the most distressing things is that it is such a true book; it tells the tale of a family in turbulent times and reflects well on all concerned. I find it hurtful to the memory of both Hilary and Ronald that this book, written with respect at the request of family, should be hidden away. The papers could have been treated with far less respect in other hands.

As for the question of "rights" to publish and copyright legalese, it does, I have come to believe, come down to a matter of interpretation. Chris and Julian Tolkien, ADC Books, Neil and I would like to publish Wheelbarrows at Dawn as a Tolkien scrapbook for posterity. Tolkien Estates do not want the same book as us, is the bottom line.

The matter, as stated elsewhere, is now down to the Tolkien family.I can do no more.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by davem

I could (were I that way inclined) argue that I seem to be the only party even attempting to ask what the nature of this material is - no-one else seems even vaguely interested.

Not exactly. Although I haven't been responding to your posts specifically, I maintained from the start that we cannot know the full reason for this action without having read the manuscript. In order to make any kind of call on the matter, one needs to see the material in question. I cannot even attempt to place the blame (such as it may or may not be) on anyone until I have all pertinent information, which includes not only the manuscript in question but also the text of any contracts and legal agreements made between the Estate and all concerned parties. As I do not have that information, I can't say who, if anyone, is trying... Well, to be honest, without full information, I can't even say what they might be trying to do; I can only offer speculation, which no matter how strongly I may feel about it is still speculation, and personal opinion. I have my own issues with the ways in which copyright has been abused by industry, but for myself, I cannot say that this is clearly a case of abuse, simply because I know that I do not have access to all necessary information. That being the case, I prefer not to debate the issue. My choice, of course.