Gandalf - geat or a joke of a wizard? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Galadriel55 · 10-22-2010, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

But to answer the question as literally posed by the thread title - no, he was not a Geat, though I don't doubt he could have taken on Grendel just as well as Beowulf!

That was a typo - apologies for that - I meant to write great

And thank you for your opinions!

Aiwendil · 10-22-2010, 03:57 PM

Just my little joke - no offense intended; typos happen to everyone.

Inziladun · 10-23-2010, 06:37 PM

It's not an idea that's occurred to me before, but I wonder if the power Gandalf was "allowed" to display to the other denizens of ME was not somewhat tied to the level of the threat.

In The Hobbit, Sauron had not arisen in his full might, so Gandalf was required to show even more discretion in the overt use of his power than later in LOTR, when things were quite clearly coming to a boil.

In addition, Gandalf had to have been aware the Eagles had habitations nearby, and was counting on them to show up to investigate the fires.

Ibrîniðilpathânezel · 10-23-2010, 08:15 PM

Gandalf's greater overt ability after his return from death was directly related to Eru changing the scope of his mission and his ability. I'm out of town again and don't have the Letters with me, but Tolkien said that Eru took his sacrifice as an opportunity to enlarge upon the Valar's original plans at the moment of their failure, and sent him back in an enhanced state to answer the greater challenges he would face. So in a way, his power had been increased because the situation had become more dire with the overall failure of Project Istari, but I don't know that one could say that Gandalf was allowed to use more or less power depending on the situation right from the beginning of his mission.

Whether or not he was a great "wizard" is not the same as being a powerful "magic user," in Tolkien's world. The term "wizard" is, in Middle-earth, an inadequate translation of "Istar," a term which actually refers to wisdom, not power (which, etymologically, is the actual root of wizard, "wise"). In that respect, I believe Gandalf acquitted himself quite well.

Galadriel · 10-24-2010, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Whether or not he was a great "wizard" is not the same as being a powerful "magic user," in Tolkien's world. The term "wizard" is, in Middle-earth, an inadequate translation of "Istar," a term which actually refers to wisdom, not power (which, etymologically, is the actual root of wizard, "wise"). In that respect, I believe Gandalf acquitted himself quite well.

Well said, Ibrin

Galadriel55 · 10-24-2010, 02:20 PM

These are some very interesting ideas, Ibrin.

I agree with you that Gandalf's wizardness is not really dependent on the magic that he does, but I'm not talking about that. In the book, it says that when attacked by the wargs and goblins, he was afraid and didn't know what to do, so he made fun of the wargs and goblins to waste time. It doesn't really explain the real reasons for Gandalf's feelings or behaviour. According to me, Gandalf is never afraid for himself, so maybe he was just worried about Thorin and Co. and the expedition. I don't think that he was expecting the eagles to come, since he lost hope and was about to jump off his tree and fight when Gwaihir saved him. Maybe at that oment he was about to sacrifice himself to save the expedition, like on the bridge of Khazad-Dum, but since this was not as important, he could not use as much inner power, because when he fought the Balrog, it was more of a battle of wills.
On the other hand, he was allowed to show his power to Grima in Meduseld, but maybe since the fate of Rohan would determine the fate of Gondor and the rest of ME, he was allowed...

Khazad-dûm · 12-10-2010, 01:00 AM

Gandalf purpose is to give advise/wisdom (hence wizard) to the people of middle-earth for them to help them selves and not just everything for them. When he has to he'll flex his power only to do as much as needed to get the job done. I read somewhere that he's not suppose to show how powerful he really is to the Elves, Men Etc. (if i find the quote ill come back with it.)That's why he only threw flaming pine cones at them.

10-23-2010, 06:37 PM	#3
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,039	It's not an idea that's occurred to me before, but I wonder if the power Gandalf was "allowed" to display to the other denizens of ME was not somewhat tied to the level of the threat. In The Hobbit, Sauron had not arisen in his full might, so Gandalf was required to show even more discretion in the overt use of his power than later in LOTR, when things were quite clearly coming to a boil. In addition, Gandalf had to have been aware the Eagles had habitations nearby, and was counting on them to show up to investigate the fires. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

10-23-2010, 08:15 PM	#4
Ibrîniðilpathânezel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the Helcaraxe Posts: 733	Gandalf's greater overt ability after his return from death was directly related to Eru changing the scope of his mission and his ability. I'm out of town again and don't have the Letters with me, but Tolkien said that Eru took his sacrifice as an opportunity to enlarge upon the Valar's original plans at the moment of their failure, and sent him back in an enhanced state to answer the greater challenges he would face. So in a way, his power had been increased because the situation had become more dire with the overall failure of Project Istari, but I don't know that one could say that Gandalf was allowed to use more or less power depending on the situation right from the beginning of his mission. Whether or not he was a great "wizard" is not the same as being a powerful "magic user," in Tolkien's world. The term "wizard" is, in Middle-earth, an inadequate translation of "Istar," a term which actually refers to wisdom, not power (which, etymologically, is the actual root of wizard, "wise"). In that respect, I believe Gandalf acquitted himself quite well. __________________ Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill

10-24-2010, 02:20 PM	#6
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,512	These are some very interesting ideas, Ibrin. I agree with you that Gandalf's wizardness is not really dependent on the magic that he does, but I'm not talking about that. In the book, it says that when attacked by the wargs and goblins, he was afraid and didn't know what to do, so he made fun of the wargs and goblins to waste time. It doesn't really explain the real reasons for Gandalf's feelings or behaviour. According to me, Gandalf is never afraid for himself, so maybe he was just worried about Thorin and Co. and the expedition. I don't think that he was expecting the eagles to come, since he lost hope and was about to jump off his tree and fight when Gwaihir saved him. Maybe at that oment he was about to sacrifice himself to save the expedition, like on the bridge of Khazad-Dum, but since this was not as important, he could not use as much inner power, because when he fought the Balrog, it was more of a battle of wills. On the other hand, he was allowed to show his power to Grima in Meduseld, but maybe since the fate of Rohan would determine the fate of Gondor and the rest of ME, he was allowed... __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

10-22-2010, 03:57 PM	#2
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Just my little joke - no offense intended; typos happen to everyone.

12-10-2010, 01:00 AM	#7
Khazad-dûm Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 12	Gandalf purpose is to give advise/wisdom (hence wizard) to the people of middle-earth for them to help them selves and not just everything for them. When he has to he'll flex his power only to do as much as needed to get the job done. I read somewhere that he's not suppose to show how powerful he really is to the Elves, Men Etc. (if i find the quote ill come back with it.)That's why he only threw flaming pine cones at them.