Gandalf - geat or a joke of a wizard?

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I guess the best explanation for that is that TH and LOTR are just different in style and purpose, and shouldn't really be regarded as one whole.

I entirely agree. TH started out as a children's book, though it grew a few steps beyond that, clearly. It was not at all an imitation in the style of the old epics as was Silmarillion, nor the prototype for modern fantasy that LotR became. The themes and atmospheres change significantly.

This makes me feel a bit out of step here at Barrow Downs. I'm not one to let an obscure passage in Silmarillion -- or any of the other unpublished-in-his-lifetime works -- too strongly influence my reading of LotR. A lot of the unpublished work enhances and refines my feel for the Third Age, but I feel LotR is the master work. Anything unpublished which diminishes my feeling for LotR is kinda sorta expendable.

The old epics just had a different theme set. Greek tragedy might belong in the same category. The supposedly great are flawed -- selfish, arrogant and proud -- and these flaws bring tragedy to all. I see the old epic themes as reflecting what the general populace generally thought of their lords in the time before democracy. That was the way it was. Selfish arrogant lords brought ruin on everything and everyone.

On the other hand, LotR was written during a time when Hollywood cowboys wore either white hats or black, and you know the white hats are going to end up on top at the end of the last reel. LotR's good guys are still flawed. During the many years of more or less peace during the middle of the Third Age, numerous free people would fence themselves in and not speak to one another. Elf feuded with dwarf, while Galadriel and Fangorn would each advise a friend to not enter the other's woods. Yet, when there came a true threat from Mordor, all knew what was right and acted upon it.

Some might dislike the Jackson movie version of LotR because the balrog has wings. I dislike it as it breaks basic themes. In the books, the lords of the free peoples made the correct calls. In the movie, in order to call Rohan, Pippin had to stealthily light the summoning fire. The Entmoot didn't come to a slow carefully thought out decision. The hobbits goaded Fangorn into acting hastily. Thus, as pretty as the photography is, the definitive LotR movie has yet to be filmed. Someday, someone will make a version where the basic themes of LotR are allowed to stand.

Anyway, yes, the various works of Tolkien reflect very different values and themes. I try to think that elves and men learned much from their folly in the First Age, and will not repeat the ancient mistakes. I try to think that during the relative peace and stability at the time of The Hobbit, everyone was a bit frivolous and silly. I try to think that people at the end of the Third Age knew a storm was coming, and became much more focused. There are in character justifications for the changing themes, for culture shifts.

I can even understand why the movie threw away the 1950s notion of white and black hats. Modern fiction embraces shades of grey. I don't believe the movie people rewriting Tolkien believed in Tolkien. They felt a need to rewrite him for a modern audience.

But out of character, they were just different works.

Sorry for the rant. Felt a need to rant.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

A lot of the unpublished work enhances and refines my feel for the Third Age, but I feel LotR is the master work.

Depends on how you look at it. JRRT has spent more time, and I daresay more devotion, on the First Age, even though it was never finished. He began with it, and ater added TH and LOTR. It just happened that the two were easier to polish, and more wanted by the public.

Some might dislike the Jackson movie version of LotR because the balrog has wings. I dislike it as it breaks basic themes.

Ditto. I heartily agree. (I'll spare you a rant here)

Sorry for the rant. Felt a need to rant.

We all do sometimes.

[Nerwen]

Blantyr,

I think you meant to post in the "Silmarillion in one word" thread.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Blantyr,

I think you meant to post in the "Silmarillion in one word" thread.

I did post there. I thought better of my word and deleted the post. Just the one post.

I didn't vanish the other messages. Honest.