horncall of buckland

[alman]

long time lurker, first time poster. As I was re reading my red book of westmarch, I came across something I found interesting, and could find no answer here on the Downs.
When the horn call of Buckland is sounded, it is "fear, fire, foes, awake, awake"
Is this literal? is it a magic horn that speaks? a prerecorded message, if you will? Or is it to be interpreted as a horn sound that all hobbits know, and are trained to recognize as MEANING fear fire foes? (remember, the horn had not sounded in living memory, durring the invasion in the fell winter)

[Inziladun]

Welcome, alman!

Your latter explanation is the answer. "Fear, Fire, Foes" was simply the meaning the call had for the Hobbits.

And even though the "official" call had not been heard since the Fell Winter, I would guess there was still some means of practicing, and letting people know what to listen for.

[skip spence]

But in that case, isn't it probable that most Hobbits, hearing the call, would just go: "oh dear, not another fire drill... And today when I'm so busy. I'm so not going to interrupt my work for this!"

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

But in that case, isn't it probable that most Hobbits, hearing the call, would just go: "oh dear, not another fire drill... And today when I'm so busy. I'm so not going to interrupt my work for this!"

Well, maybe it coming in the early hours of the morning was a tipoff. And Hobbits living so near the Old Forest might be disposed to take it more seriously than someone from Hobbiton or Bywater.

[alman]

then why not in this instance just send out the sound for "FOES! FOES! FOES! Awake!!Awake!" ??
I am more inclined to believe it was actually a magical talking alarm (like the trolls wallet!)

[Rumil]

Hi Alman,

Welcome to the Downs!

My interpretation is that the horn call tune rhymes with the words 'fear! fire! foes! awake! awake!'

So something like 'Bwa, Ba, Baa, Bawa, Bawa' - guess you can tell I'm no musician huh!

I agree that its not 100% clear either way though.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alman

then why not in this instance just send out the sound for "FOES! FOES! FOES! Awake!!Awake!" ??
I am more inclined to believe it was actually a magical talking alarm (like the trolls wallet!)

It was a generic horn call, A 911 bugle blast to account for all sorts of emergencies.
And the Hobbits had no magic. Absolutely none.

Originally Posted by Rumil

My interpretation is that the horn call tune rhymes with the words 'fear! fire! foes! awake! awake!'

So something like 'Bwa, Ba, Baa, Bawa, Bawa' - guess you can tell I'm no musician huh!

I agree, Rumil. The horn blast imitates the call.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by alman

then why not in this instance just send out the sound for "FOES! FOES! FOES! Awake!!Awake!" ?? I am more inclined to believe it was actually a magical talking alarm (like the trolls wallet!)

But Alman, the logic there's completely reversible– why have a magical alarm that only conveys a non-specific "hey, there's some kind of emergency or other" message, when a simple horn call could do the job?

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

For some reason I always thought that the Fear, Fire, Foes, Awake thing was just accompanying the actual horn call. Is that not so?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

For some reason I always thought that the Fear, Fire, Foes, Awake thing was just accompanying the actual horn call. Is that not so?

I think it's the meaning of the call, and also perhaps the call has the same rhythm as the phrase, as Rumil suggests.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Even simple hunting horns without valves (which give modern concert horns the ability to play precise notes) can be played with various notes. Compare that to the bugle in military use - every soldier knows whether it is sounding attack, retreat, reveille, or taps. In LotR we also have examples of brass instruments playing signals that signify persons - Beregond identified the "sound of a trumpet ending on a long high note" (RotK) as Faramir's call. No magic involved there either.

Tolkien had military experience, something that a majority of his readers has not had. The most logical explanation for the warning in the Shire and all others uses of horns, trumpets, etc. is that the melody they played had a specific meaning, and each warning had a different sequence of notes.

I remember weekly signal "rehearsals" of the emergency warning signals in my home town when I was young - three long meant something different than one continuous, for example. Even with only one note, the rhythm denoted various meanings.

It could be that each of the words (fear, fire, foes, awake) had its own signal, and when combined, the highest level of warning was sounded.

[Selmo]

In my time as a youngster and as a leader in a youth organisation, I've learned, played and taught a few dozen military-style bugle calls used during camps.

Just like the Buckland alarm call, most of them have words associated with them. The words help the bugler remember the tune and help the hearers remember what the tune means.

[alman]

It was a generic horn call, A 911 bugle blast to account for all sorts of emergencies.
And the Hobbits had no magic. Absolutely none

The did have magic, but it came from the outside. Old Took had magical cufflinks, gifted by Gandalf. (perhaps the talking horn of buckland was a gift from Gandalf as well! maybe even in Gandalfs voice.)
Bilbo had sting, and Bilbo also gave many presents on his 111st birthday that were obviously magical.

Also, the horn, if magic, could only have been enchanted to alert a static message in emergencies. It need not have been intelligent and recognize specific danger, just to go off when sounded.

It just seems odd, that with all the horn blowing in the books, only one has words associated with it. (why didnt Theoden toot out "forward!!" instead of a generic blast?)

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by alman

The did have magic, but it came from the outside. Old Took had magical cufflinks, gifted by Gandalf. (perhaps the talking horn of buckland was a gift from Gandalf as well! maybe even in Gandalfs voice.) Bilbo had sting, and Bilbo also gave many presents on his 111st birthday that were obviously magical.

Surely– given the extreme rarity of magical items in the Shire– the existence, and origins of, a talking horn would be worth mentioning? (We know where Sting, the cufflinks and the presents came from.) And the phrase, from memory, is "the horn–call of Buckland," not "the horn of Buckland"– emphasis on the sound, not the instrument. And more than one horn sounds the call, so it would have to be multiple talking horns.

Originally Posted by alman

Also, the horn, if magic, could only have been enchanted to alert a static message in emergencies. It need not have been intelligent and recognize specific danger, just to go off when sounded.

See my first post– why create something magical that only does what the mundane version could do just as easily?

Originally Posted by alman

It just seems odd, that with all the horn blowing in the books, only one has words associated with it.

As odd as the presence of a brass band's worth of (pointlessly) magical instruments in the Shire, with nothing to show how they got there? I think not.

Besides, isn't it much cooler to imagine horn calls echoing through the night, than some guy's voice yelling?

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Selmo

In my time as a youngster and as a leader in a youth organisation, I've learned, played and taught a few dozen military-style bugle calls used during camps.

Just like the Buckland alarm call, most of them have words associated with them. The words help the bugler remember the tune and help the hearers remember what the tune means.

I believe Selmo is correct.

For instance, we are all familiar with "Taps". Here is one set of lyrics for "Taps":

"Day is done, gone the sun
From the lakes, from the hills, from the trees
All is well, Safely rest, God is nigh"

So while we usually call that tune "Taps", we might also call it "Day is done". It means, either, Sunset... or a Burial. We all know it.

[mark12_30]

Wikipedia has an interesting article on Reveille. It includes lyrics, which I now recall, that start with "I can't get 'em up." (U.S. Version.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reveille


Bugle calls in general, in which IMO Taps is sadly neglected:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugle_call

(But I now do remember "Soupy.")

[alman]

See my first post– why create something magical that only does what the mundane version could do just as easily?

Nerwen- like cufflinks?

Or why not have them "know" when you want them removed, instead of asking them?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by alman

See my first post– why create something magical that only does what the mundane version could do just as easily?

Nerwen- like cufflinks?

Or why not have them "know" when you want them removed, instead of asking them?

Okay, but that's more of "gimmick" magical item– a toy, really. And you haven't answered any of my other points.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by alman

See my first post– why create something magical that only does what the mundane version could do just as easily?

Nerwen- like cufflinks?

Or why not have them "know" when you want them removed, instead of asking them?

The cufflinks you're referring to were not a product of Hobbit design, but were said to have been given to the Old Took by Gandalf. Hobbits didn't make magical items themselves.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The cufflinks you're referring to were not a product of Hobbit design, but were said to have been given to the Old Took by Gandalf. Hobbits didn't make magical items themselves.

Alman's already stated a theory that the "talking horn of buckland" came from Gandalf.

So that's alright... except that there's no evidence whatever that this horn existed at all.

And Alman, I hate to pick on newbies, but you really are jumping the gun on this one. Before you begin the speculation on how the Talking Horn worked, where it came from and what it sounded like, how about proving that there was a Talking Horn?

[Inziladun]

Ah. Sorry, I missed that.

In the interest of a pedantic argument, I would wonder why, if there was anything special about the horn used to sound the call, why the wording in the book says that the "horn-call of Buckland" is heard, and not something like the "Horn of Buckland", to note it wasn't an ordinary horn?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Ah. Sorry, I missed that.

In the interest of a pedantic argument, I would wonder why, if there was anything special about the horn used to sound the call, why the wording in the book says that the "horn-call of Buckland" is heard, and not something like the "Horn of Buckland", to note it wasn't an ordinary horn?

Beat you to that one, my friend– see my post at #14.

[Inziladun]

Seems like that's pretty much it, then.

*throws up hands and walks off, whistling*

[alman]

And Alman, I hate to pick on newbies, but you really are jumping the gun on this one. Before you begin the speculation on how the Talking Horn worked, where it came from and what it sounded like, how about proving that there was a Talking Horn?

the book does that for me. The call is Fear fire foes, awake awake.
not bwa bwa bwa. and, as I stated, no other horn is associated with a word. Why no horn of hornburg blown by helm the hammerhand with some word of revenge or fear? why no call of theoden"forward" instead of bursting asunder? why no horn of Merry from scatha the worm that lifts the hearts of all who hear it have some meaning/words?
also, the phoneCALL i recieved was someone speaking to me on the other end, not just the ring of the phone. Someone may call out to you as well. A call can be a voice or just noise.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by alman

And Alman, I hate to pick on newbies, but you really are jumping the gun on this one. Before you begin the speculation on how the Talking Horn worked, where it came from and what it sounded like, how about proving that there was a Talking Horn?

the book does that for me. The call is Fear fire foes, awake awake.
not bwa bwa bwa. and, as I stated, no other horn is associated with a word. Why no horn of hornburg blown by helm the hammerhand with some word of revenge or fear? why no call of theoden"forward" instead of bursting asunder? why no horn of Merry from scatha the worm that lifts the hearts of all who hear it have some meaning/words?
also, the phoneCALL i recieved was someone speaking to me on the other end, not just the ring of the phone. Someone may call out to you as well. A call can be a voice or just noise.

You still haven't answered my points. Look at them again.

[alman]

or, you may prove that it did not talk.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by alman

or, you may prove that it did not talk.

I don't have to– you're the one making the claim, so the burden of proof is on you. Them's the breaks, kid.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by alman

The call is Fear fire foes, awake awake.
not bwa bwa bwa. and, as I stated, no other horn is associated with a word. Why no horn of hornburg blown by helm the hammerhand with some word of revenge or fear? why no call of theoden"forward" instead of bursting asunder? why no horn of Merry from scatha the worm that lifts the hearts of all who hear it have some meaning/words?

Actually, it appears that there might be another instance of a horn-call being associated with words, according to how one interprets it.
After Théoden bursts the horn prior to the charge of the Rohirrim, we have this:

And straightaway all the horns in the host were lifted up in music, and the blowing of the horns of Rohan in that hour was like a storm upon the plain and thunder in the mountains.
Ride now, Ride now! Ride to Gondor!

ROTK The Ride of the Rohirrim

The indication looks to me that the "Ride now!" call there was contained in the music of the horns, not in a spoken command.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

There was no "magic talking horn" involved. In the Scouring of the Shire, when Merry rides off, he says that he's going to blow the horn of Rohan to give the ruffians some "different music," and shortly thereafter, Sam "heard Merry change the note, and up went the Horn-cry of Buckland, shaking the air." If a specific magic horn was required, Merry would not have been able to play it on another horn. It was nothing more than a specific sequence of notes, devised by the folk of Buckland to be a warning of danger, summoning aid. Heaven knows there are plenty of examples in history of specific horn or bugle calls being used for specific purposes — like attack, retreat, go to sleep, etc., or to identify certain inidivuals, as Tolkien mentions Faramir's horn call in The Siege of Minas Tirith.

I actually did write my take on the horn call of Buckland as the introduction to my theme for Merry in my FotR symphony, but it's in one of the movements that currently exists only as a rather mediocre sounding recording of a MIDI instrument rendition. Maybe I should post it on my site, anyway, 'cause it doesn't look as if I'll finish rescoring it in the near future....

[alman]

Inziladun- exellent point! finally, some point of interest that helps clear things up. I dont have my copy on me, so at the moment , I will take your word. I would like to check for quotes, and see if someone is credied with speaking something else after the "ride to gondor" line.
also
Sam "heard Merry change the note, and up went the Horn-cry of Buckland, shaking the air."
Merrys horn does something else besides "shake" the air momments before, like maybe "ring" like this was from two diffent horns.
I took this to mean that he activated the Horncall of buckland by a specific note from his horn.

[alman]

I don't have to– you're the one making the claim, so the burden of proof is on you. Them's the breaks, kid
The book says fear fire foes, so the horn went up fear fire foes. how can you argue that?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by alman

Inziladun- exellent point! finally, some point of interest that helps clear things up. I dont have my copy on me, so at the moment , I will take your word. I would like to check for quotes, and see if someone is credied with speaking something else after the "ride to gondor" line.
also
Sam "heard Merry change the note, and up went the Horn-cry of Buckland, shaking the air."
Merrys horn does something else besides "shake" the air momments before, like maybe "ring" like this was from two diffent horns.
I took this to mean that he activated the Horncall of buckland by a specific note from his horn.

Alman, not to knock Zil, but this was logically cleared up way before he found that quote. You have clearly become attached to your talking horn theory, to the extent of thinking up creative little details about how this horn supposedly operated –but it's all a house of cards, because you have no evidence that any such horn existed. You've misunderstood the text, that's all. It happens to everyone.

Now, it has happened here before that a member– usually a new member– has brought up an eccentric pet theory, and stubbornly refused to back down no matter what arguments were marshalled against it. This has been known to cause some pretty bad blood and general unpleasantness, so I hope you'll be more sensible.

EDIT:X'd with Alman.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I do not take other talking objects - the troll's purse, Turin's sword - at face value, thinking of them as storytellers' decoration, and it is, in any case, implied to a far smaller degree that the horn talked.

Still, interesting topic.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by alman

The book says fear fire foes, so the horn went up fear fire foes. how can you argue that?

What do you mean, how can I argue it? Read the thread! People have explained over and over again that horn-calls often conventionally have words attached to them. A bit earlier you seemed to have accepted that.

You've got nothing, Alman. There's no Talking Horn of Buckland in this story. You just made a mistake, okay?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I do not take other talking objects - the troll's purse, Turin's sword - at face value, thinking of them as storytellers' decoration, and it is, in any case, implied to a far smaller degree that the horn talked.

Still, interesting topic.

The sword and the purse I'm willing to concede might have actually"talked" (though you can also interpret it as more of a metaphorical/poetic license thing).

This isn't even "decoration". I mean, it isn't implied at all that the horn(s) literally spoke. It's just a horn call that means "Fear, fire, foes, awake, awake!"

[Nerwen]

As for why "it's just a horn-call" is an inherently preferable explanation to "the Bucklanders for some reason had a whole lot of magical talking horns that (also) for some reason are never, ever mentioned as such, and we don't know where they came from, but maybe they were a present from Gandalf, even though this is never mentioned either,"...may I recommend a certain shaving implement belonging to a certain English friar?

Anyway, Alman, look: all these other topics-gone-bad I'm thinking of started just this way: the original poster asks a seemingly genuine question, of the "Is X true or is Y true" type, and then it turns out he or she had already made up his or her mind that it was Y, and wasn't prepared to accept anything else. So really, I wish people wouldn't ask questions they don't want answered. It gets tiring.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alman

The did have magic, but it came from the outside. Old Took had magical cufflinks, gifted by Gandalf. (perhaps the talking horn of buckland was a gift from Gandalf as well! maybe even in Gandalfs voice.)
Bilbo had sting, and Bilbo also gave many presents on his 111st birthday that were obviously magical.

Ultra-rare gifts are not like some generic, magic horn that sits outside in all types of weather. The Hobbits, and I am referring to the vast majority of the whole Shire, would have never been acquainted with any sort of magic in their entire lives. Tolkien said the Hobbits possessed no innate magic, and goes to great lengths to show the mundanity of their lives, where eccentric folks like the Old Took and Bilbo Baggins are such an exception to the rule that they are considered bizarre by the common halflings.

Originally Posted by alman

Also, the horn, if magic, could only have been enchanted to alert a static message in emergencies. It need not have been intelligent and recognize specific danger, just to go off when sounded.

A static, pre-programmed magic horn? This isn't some rap song with sequenced music.

Originally Posted by alman

It just seems odd, that with all the horn blowing in the books, only one has words associated with it. (why didnt Theoden toot out "forward!!" instead of a generic blast?)

Tolkien is using metaphor. He uses metaphor often. There were no locomotives in the Shire, but Tolkien refers to a train as a point of comparison. Look up the terms metaphor/simile. It may aid in your understanding of literature.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by alman

why didnt Theoden toot out "forward!!" instead of a generic blast?)

Because he had already delivered a more energizing call to the charge...

Arise, arise, Riders of Theoden!
Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter!
spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered,
a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!
Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!

Besides, it conveys a lot more energy to blow so hard the horn bursts
than just to "toot" out a "forward" call.

[Puddleglum]

And straightaway all the horns in the host were lifted up in music, and the blowing of the horns of Rohan in that hour was like a storm upon the plain and thunder in the mountains.
Ride now, Ride now! Ride to Gondor!

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The indication looks to me that the "Ride now!" call there was contained in the music of the horns, not in a spoken command.

Possibly, tho it's always seemed to me that these words were also cried out by Theoden (even tho that isn't explicitly stated). Ie, that the sequence was:

1. Theoden makes his "arise now" call, ending with a first "Ride now, Ride now, Ride to Gondor"
2. Theoden blows such a blast that his horn bursts.
3. The Rohirrim respond with a blowing of horns "like a storm upon the plain."
4. Energy builds until Theoden cries again "Ride now, Ride now! Ride to Gondor!", Yells to & spurs Snowmane, and leads the Glorious Charge; Adrenaline pumping; "Borne up as a god of old, even as Orome the great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young."

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I do not take other talking objects - the troll's purse, Turin's sword - at face value, thinking of them as storytellers' decoration, and it is, in any case, implied to a far smaller degree that the horn talked. Still, interesting topic.

The trolls purse and Turin's black sword seem to be pretty specific clear cases of objects speaking with words - just from how those incidents are described.

• "Troll's purses are mischief, and this one was no exception. 'Ere, oo are you?' it squeaked as it left (Bills) pocket." In this case, a simple set of notes or grunts would have no particular meaning to Bilbo. And the story is written from his perspective. Seems clear Tolkien intended for Bill to have a talking purse.
• Turin actually carried on a (short) conversation with his sword. Turin: "Black sword, will you drink my blood?" Sword: "Gladly, so I can forget the innocent blood YOU made me drink." (paraphrase of quotes).

In the case of the horn call of Buckland, there is never an indication in Tolkien's wording that any of the horns themselves spoke or squeaked words. It's always the horn-CALL (ie, the music) that is associated with the words.