WW LXXIX: Fall From Olympus

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, I'd hope so, but some people will have it that a surviving Lover has automatically lost anyway. In this game, it makes a whopping big difference to the dynamics whether that's so or not.

Well, if their lover dies they can no longer win as a "lover", so sure, I guess technically they could do whatever they pleased after that (use their revenge kill on themself even). But really, I don't think that's proper.

Think of it this way- Romeo and Juliet... Juliet dies, so now where are Romeo's loyalties supposing he doesn't kill himself? Does the fact that he used to be with a Capulet make him side with them forever against the family he came from? I think not. First loyalty is to Juliet, second is to his family, thus with her gone...

Agreed?

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Think of it this way- Romeo and Juliet... Juliet dies, so now where are Romeo's loyalties supposing he doesn't kill himself? Does the fact that he used to be with a Capulet make him side with them forever against the family he came from? I think not. First loyalty is to Juliet, second is to his family, thus with her gone...

Agreed?

Agreed.

Wait. I just agreed with phantom. There is clearly something topsy turvy about the world today.

I need to go ponder that fact (aka go to work).

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Think of it this way- Romeo and Juliet... Juliet dies, so now where are Romeo's loyalties supposing he doesn't kill himself? Does the fact that he used to be with a Capulet make him side with them forever against the family he came from? I think not. First loyalty is to Juliet, second is to his family, thus with her gone...

Agreed?

No, because Romeo died first, for real.

[the phantom]

I only used the names Romeo and Juliet due to the family ties and lover status, Folwren- the scenario wasn't meant to be strictly accurate to the original tale, particularly since I had the Zeus-Hera pairing in mind (that's what spurred the discussion) and as the male in that pairing is the "innocent" one the scenario I drew up made more sense with the female Juliet dying first.

[Folwren]

That's okay, Phantom, I was only teasing.

[A Little Green]

Hello folks! I think I'll start with my usual grumble about a difficult deadline - 9 AM my time, meaning that I'll have to either vote seven or eight hours early or wake up around six or seven in the morning to have time to read and vote.

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Also:
"Wolf!"

There, now my first post really is screaming it to all of you.

Originally Posted by Eonwe

I think he meant that in that case the pantom would be on the "good" side as opposed to being Hera.

Eonwe, you just made my day.

Originally Posted by Folwren

Just my two cents. Only, this is so worthless (being the first day and all) that it's practically only worth .5 cents.

It's never worthless if you're saying something on topic or voicing your opinions on others!

Originally Posted by phantom

Interesting tactic, Boro (you know the one I mean- the one that has nothing to do with me personally, but the underlying tactic). Given simple odds I figure you're bluffing, but if you aren't and things happen the way you appear to wish for them to happen (I mean you're practically begging), do you realize how many peeved players there will be?

My brain hurts.

So, just in general, then. I'm definitely not going to vote for Wilwa or Foley toDay, they both seem to speak sense and make an effort to make others do so as well. (I know making sense doesn't mean you're innocent, but at this stage it just might.) Nerwen seems innocentish too at the moment. Of the others I'm either too confused or have too little material to formulate even a vague early Day 1 opinion.

[Nogrod]

I'll start by following Greenie with her grumble on the deadline. So I'll be voting earlyish everyDay - unless the gods of game force me to steal from my sleep - which would not be unheard of...

Okay, the way the phantom tries to convince Zeus to stick his loyalties to the good side in the event of Hera's possible death speaks good of him. The problem is of course he could bluff that (I've done that kind of bluffing myself so I should know). But I'm in no hurry seeing him at the gallows. Let's hear him first.

Wilwa makes sense and effort and should live, whatever her loyalties are. People who talk lot are easier to read in the long run than those who don't.

So lets lynch... no, I'm actually not suggesting that same thing once again.

*Goes back to read*

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So lets lynch... no, I'm actually not suggesting that same thing once again.

A disappointment! I was expecting that!

[Kath]

On the subject of what and who is innocent, from the Admin thread:

If the name I pick out is of an innocent (or Cobbler) that person will come back to life ALONG WITH Poseidon. If a Wolf or the False Seer is chosen, no one comes back.

Looks like this means that anyone who isn't a Wolf or False Seer, so that means non-wolf Lovers etc, count as innocent. So technically right now we actually do have a plethora of innocents. As Wolves and Lovers find each other those numbers diminish because they have loyalty to each other over the village while both halves of the pairing are alive. So while lynching the Lovers is sort of positive, it is still more positive for us to kill the Wolves over the Lovers, especially early while they haven't had a chance to find each other.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

If the name I pick out is of an innocent (or Cobbler) that person will come back to life ALONG WITH Poseidon. If a Wolf or the False Seer is chosen, no one comes back.

Except there's no Cobbler. Though arguably the wolves' Lovers are kind of like Cobblers.

I also agree about the Lover thing. Once the wolf lover is dead, the other is allied to the village. Their original goal can't be accomplished, and they can't win with the wolves, so their only option for any sort of victory is with the village. Same the other way around. For example Hera's main allegiance is to Zeus, and then to the wolves (just so happens that she can't win as a Lover without also winning as a wolf, so it's really the same), but if Zeus dies than her only allegiance is to the wolves.


So I have to leave in half an hour, and will be gone for about 7 hours. I won't make it to DL (since it's 2am for me (my bestie is clearly crazy) and I have to work in the morning).

x'ed with Greenie

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Except there's no Cobbler. Though arguably the wolves' Lovers are kind of like Cobblers.

The Lovers themselves are a wild card, unpredictable. They'll do whatever it takes to win, whether it means aligning themselves with the good or evil side, won't they?

And Nog, mate. I see you.

Edit- What I mean, Nog, is that you're visible.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Lovers themselves are a wild card, unpredictable. They'll do whatever it takes to win, whether it means aligning themselves with the good or evil side, won't they?

But one of each of the Lovers is a wolf. So the only way they can win (survive til the end) is if the wolves also win. Therefore their only choice is to be allied to the wolves. If both were innocent then they'd be a wild card, but one being evil changes the whole dynamic.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

And Nog, mate. I see you.

Edit- What I mean, Nog, is that you're visible.

Oops... corrected.

About the wolves and lovers still... So correct me if I'm wrong.

Zeus (innocent) and Hera (wolf) are lovers who already know each others identities eg. Zeus knows one wolf and his immediate fate lies with her and thus in a wolf-victory? If we get Hera killed his alignment should change as his victory would thus be tied with the innocents winning?

The two other wolves know their lover's identity but the lovers don't know theirs. And the wolves are not allowed to communicate their lovers' identities to each other. But what kind of worries me is the possibility of them winning all together, the six of them... they coud form a powerful voting-block togehter if they could hint at each other about whom not to kill and if the innocent-sides of the pairings found out their lupine-lovers.

So can they win together or will it be just one lover-pair that can win? It's not probably too important in a few Days to come but might prove quite a turner later on.

[Eönwë]

Ok, so I've been thinking about this for a while now, but I can't really think of a good solution:

What do we do if a Seer reveals?

[Rikae]

Foley, Day 1 can be very useful. That doesn't mean it has to be deadly serious at all times. Even joking can sometimes be useful; or, at least, anything that gets people talking - the more talk, the better, I say.

Originally Posted by ModGod

If the name I pick out is of an innocent (or Cobbler) that person will come back to life ALONG WITH Poseidon. If a Wolf or the False Seer is chosen, no one comes back.

Hm - this means that when Poseidon comes back, another role will be revealed. One way of finding the false seer/a wolf, then.

So, why exactly are we debating over/voting on what the winning conditions for a surviving lover are? Isn't that for Glirdan to say?