Did Maedhros kill Laughter?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Hah. You know nothing.....

Lalaith and Nienor on Amon Ethir. Glaurung comes.

Lalaith:Sister, what is this?

Nienor:It's dragon of a foul one. Run!

Lalaith: No ned to run,sister. Watch...

Lalaith gets out a flask of water from river Gulduin and extends it to Glaurung.

Oh. If you refer to the stream in Mirkwood, may I remind you that it lies around fifteen hundred miles to the east of Lalaith's current location, with a couple of rather impressive mountain ranges in between, and that it quite possibly isn't even enchanted yet?

Originally Posted by Urwen

Lalaith:It's harmless.

Glaurung drinks and falls into slumber. Lalaith and her sister sneak away quietly...

Beat this cunning!

Welll... I can't say I'd find it easy to deal with a real live dragon myself. But I'll tell you what, my very first step would be to reject out of hand any plan that relied on the dragon's being a complete nitwit. Seems just a trifle over-optimistic.

In other word: how did she get the water, and why did he drink it?

Over to you.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Oh. If you refer to the stream in Mirkwood, may I remind you that it lies around fifteen hundred miles to the east of Lalaith's current location, with a couple of rather impressive mountain ranges in between, and that it quite possibly isn't even enchanted yet?



Welll... I can't say I'd find it easy to deal with a real live dragon myself. But I'll you what, my very first step would be to reject out of hand any plan that relied on the dragon's being a complete nitwit. Seems just a trifle over-optimistic.

In other word: how did she get the water, and why did he drink it?

Over to you.

Right, so I'm mainly here to be a Nerwen cheerleader. Goooo Nerwen!

[Urwen]

I think not, my young friend. You will find the fragment Narn i Gwilwileth Luin in Part 4 of The History of Middle Earth, Volume 10, as part of Note 12(b) to the long metaphysical dialogue Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.

Prove it. Give me that text here and I'll believe you.

*crosses arms,waits*

[mormegil]

I'm sending this thread to Novice and Newcomers as it doesn't really belong in Mirth.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by mormegil

I'm sending this thread to Novice and Newcomers as it doesn't really belong in Mirth.

Where next? Haudh-en-Ndengin, the lost topics?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I dunno, Morm, I found it pretty mirthful.

[Blind Guardian]

What is a mirth?

Gladness and gaiety, especially when expressed by laughter.

Doesn't make sense. Sorry

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Prove it. Give me that text here and I'll believe you.

*crosses arms,waits*

Here:

Finrod sighed, "Aye, adaneth, but many are the chances of this world, and hope or ruin may turn on the flap of a butterfly's wings."

"These are dark sayings," said Andreth. "Ye Eldar speak ever in riddles."

"Nay," said Finrod, "for foresight is given to me of many things, though seldom of joy. I beheld as a vision that a choice will come to a girl-child, the first-born daughter of a great warrior of the folk of Hador Lórindol and Adanel the Wise, whether to destroy a fair blue butterfly that resteth on the grass before her. For if she but let it live, in time to come one of its kin shall flit before the eyes of her sister and deliver her from the malice of the Dragon who would ensnare her; yet if she put forth her foot to crush it, her sister will be lost and grief beyond telling come upon her house.

'And I fear that the Marrer, working even through the whim of this child...'

HoMe X Part IV: Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. This is a fragment, included in the appendix only, as it becomes indecipherable after this point, and it's not clear how Tolkien intended it to fit into the main text of the Athrabeth, or even if he did.

[Urwen]

Haahhaaa. If it's first-born,as Finrod says,then it can't be Lalaith,because if you have any knowledge you'll know that Turin was first-born, Lalaith second-born and Nienor third born of hin Hurin!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Haahhaaa. If it's first-born,as Finrod says,then it can't be Lalaith,because if you have any knowledge you'll know that Turin was first-born, Lalaith second-born and Nienor third born of hin Hurin!

I'd assume the text is referring to Lalaith as the first–born daughter rather than the eldest child– although its possible that at the time he wrote this Tolkien did intend her to be the eldest, as he was in the habit of reworking his "Legendarium" and shifting around the details in just this way.*

Anyway, the editor (Christopher Tolkien) seems to think it's about Lalaith:

This brief passage, scribbled on the back of an old gas bill and subsequently used to line the drawer in which my father kept his socks, contains not only an examination of the role of causality in Middle-earth but what appears to be a startling re-assessment of the part played by Húrin's daughter Urwen or Lalaith in the eventual fate of her siblings.

*Though perhaps not to the extent of making Túrin a girl...

[Nerwen]

Oh, and Eorl and Urwen– please don't get into a punch-up now.

It would make me very sad if the mods closed this thread.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

*Though perhaps not to the extent of making Túrin a girl...

Whyever not? You must admit, it would make for interesting reading.

And, Urwen, in case they were a bit vague in their correction, it was the first-born daughter, not the first-born child. This makes a big difference; for instance, in some cultures the first-born son inherits even if the first-born child was a daughter. In this case, it was Morwen and Hurin's first-born daughter that crushed the butterfly, not the first-born son. Did that help? You seemed a bit confused still.

EDIT: PS, this thread is becomming rather rude. "If you have any knowledge" in particular. Quite rude, and maybe not the best move if you want us to take you seriously. Just sayin'.

[Eorl of Rohan]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Haahhaaa. If it's first-born,as Finrod says,then it can't be Lalaith,because if you have any knowledge you'll know that Turin was first-born, Lalaith second-born and Nienor third born of hin Hurin!

Urwen. Ever since you answered "Feanor is empty-headed!!!!!!" to my sardonical reply on Olwe's shortcomings,
I believed that you were being purposefully childish for a joke. Now I am not so sure. Please laugh and tell us that you were having fun at our expense.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I beheld as a vision that a choice will come to a girl-child, the first-born daughter of a great warrior of the folk of Hador Lórindol and Adanel the Wise

FIRSTBORN DAUGHTER. Excuse us if we were not aware that Turin was a GIRL. And YOU accuse NERWEN of ignorance? +chokes+
.

[Urwen]

The point is that Morgoth couldn't afford losing his best henchman,so he'll surely undo his curse.And without the curse,Turin and Nienor will be saved.

Which takes care of Lalaith's first goal...

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

The point is that Morgoth couldn't afford losing his best henchman,so he'll surely undo his curse.And without the curse,Turin and Nienor will be saved.

Which takes care of Lalaith's first goal...

I don't get it. Is the "Voice" supposed to be Lalaith? Is she taking Sauron hostage? Her and what army?

[Urwen]

Army of geese,spiders,ponies,Finrod and host of Nargothrond and army of house of the wing from Gondolin,led by her cousin!

[Urwen]

'And I fear that the Marrer, working even through the whim of this child...'

WHAT? Morgoth working through Lalaith?!

He, she and me are angry at you for even thinking that!

[Urwen]

Yeah-short life.That's where the trouble lies...

She could have lived normal lifespan and went to the Void peacefully.Oh,yes, she could,were it not for some killer who all of you think awesome...

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Yeah-short life.That's where the trouble lies...

She could have lived normal lifespan and went to the Void peacefully.Oh,yes, she could,were it not for some killer who all of you think awesome...

One need not think Maedhros awesome to think him innocent in this matter.

For that matter, one need not think Eöl, Sauron, Mîm, Andróg, Ar-Pharazôn, or Bill Ferny are awesome in order to pronounce them innocent on this score. Personally speaking, I'm rather fond of Maedhros, and see him as one of the more admirable members of the Finwëan royal house, and one of the most tragic, but that's beside the point. Unlike my silly list of characters given just above, Maedhros, it is true, is connected with the plague that caused Lalaith's death, but this is in no way incriminating. Unfortunate, but not incriminating.

Of course, it's also worth point out that I don't think Lalaith is awesome (unless we mean the Bianca-avatared Downs version). She's a child--undeniably cute and probably endearing... but does she strike a sense of "awe"?

No.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Lalaith: I am really Morgoth in disguise!

But this theory makes so much sense!

Originally Posted by Urwen

'And I fear that the Marrer, working even through the whim of this child...'

WHAT? Morgoth working through Lalaith?!

He, she and me are angry at you for even thinking that!

What do Finrod and Andreth have to do with anything? Andreth never even met her, as far as I know. And neither did Finrod. And Nerwen didn't say Morgoth was working through Lalaith. She said Morgoth was Lalaith. (Admitedly this was a joke, but I am inclinded to have a bit more fun with it. )

[Galadriel55]

Urwen, I understand that you will defend Lalaith by any means, and so would I - but don't blame Maedhros for her death! It's not like he took a sword and chopped her in half. If you ask me, it was Morgoth's fault, since it was his evil spell that made so many people sick. If you still blame Maedhros, you've also got to blame the people who told Morgoth about the plans of the elves. AND you have to blame Thingol, Odroreth (I know I got the name wrong - I mean Finrod's brother) and other Elven kings for sending so little troops. If that's still not enough blaming, blame the Valar (ie Mandos) for cursing every deed of Noldor, blame Feanor for making the Silmarili, blame Yavanna for creating the Trees whose light is the reason for the Silmarils to be so beautiful, blame Eru for creating his Children who would then kill each other... Well, you can't really blame anyone above Eru, so I'll have to stop at that. Do you see my point? Morgoth is the most direct and relevant cause for Lalaith's death, and it's not Maedhros's fault that the epidemic came at this specific time and killed this specific girl.

PS: the butterfly incident could happen to anyone - it was also an accident. If you want to prevent a thing like that, you have to spend your whole life in bed.