If Denethor hadn't committed suicide

[Erendis]

As Formendacil mentionned before,there was no real summon for the Council of Elrond.It could be better called a string of coincidences that drove the participants there-by the way,Formendacil,nice comment about Eru's interference,which if seen bearing in mind that Eru and Mangwe have not forgotten Midddle-Earth,it will end to another 4 at least pages of comments-.

As for the effeciency of the White Council,the first question is whether the rest had any knoeldge of Necromanter existence.And even if they had,with all the respect to the other tribes of Middle-Earth and without underestimating their courage,what could they possibly do for help?Of cource the answer here would be "They didn't know about the Ring too.As for the help,the same was thought for Hobbits and see what they have accomplised in the end".However,in the case of the Necromanter there was no almost impossible solution,like casting the Ring into Udun.In fact,they weren't certain of his identity yet.So,supposing that there were Humans and Dwarves etc in the Council,they wouldn't have been asked to go in Dol Guldur having no clue of what they were to face,like Gandalf did,but might have given just an oppinion,which wouldn't have changed the final decision.And when the Council got him out of there,it used its strength to do it,which means magic and possibly the Three.Were there such forces available elsewhere?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

of course I was just kidding.

I had a hunch you might be. Still, nice attempt to retrofit wheels to the Lord of Gondor!
I think you're spot on about Denethor's character and the question of status and honour (see his attitude towards 'Lesser Men' and his touchiness on the thinning of Númenorean blood). His position as the shield of the West against Mordor had become so important to him that in the end, he seems to have regarded the whole War of the Ring as a personal pee-contest between himself and Sauron, the lord of the Dark Tower and the lord of the White. If he'd been able to accept that he was just one figure among many others in the great struggle (an important one, no doubt, but not crucial), a servant of a greater cause that could still prevail even if he himself failed, he could have forgiven himself and survive. Gandalf, I think, tried to teach him this lesson in his wonderful "I also am a steward" speech, but Denethor's ears were stopped.

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Gandalf, I think, tried to teach him this lesson in his wonderful "I also am a steward" speech, but Denethor's ears were stopped.

It is among the greatest moments of Gandalf in the entire trilogy,a part that shows how deeple hummble he is and gives a very nice lesson to everyone concerning our points towards life.

As for Denethor,although it was sad to see a man with such potential ending up like that due to his pride and narrowmindness,I have to admitt that I was not really bothered to see him dying,for by his actions,self-destruction seems inevitable. He had been given many chances,being favoured from Luck from his very birth,and still he messsed up all in the end because he did not accept to listen for once somebody else's advice.Unlike his "rival",who payed attention to councilors even when he became king by his own effort and could have overestimated himself and his position in the world.

In fact,don't you think Denethor and Aragorn make a symmetric couple?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Erendis

In fact,don't you think Denethor and Aragorn make a symmetric couple?

As far as comparison goes, I would say that Theoden could be compared to Tuor (with a different ending) and Denethor to Túrin, only of course both are on a smaller, less dramatic (and tragic in Denethor's case) scale. However, they both get a message/guidance from the West (whether direct or indirect) and both react to it in different ways.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

His position as the shield of the West against Mordor had become so important to him that in the end, he seems to have regarded the whole War of the Ring as a personal pee-contest between himself and Sauron, the lord of the Dark Tower and the lord of the White. If he'd been able to accept that he was just one figure among many others in the great struggle (an important one, no doubt, but not crucial), a servant of a greater cause that could still prevail even if he himself failed, he could have forgiven himself and survive.

Interesting way to characterise Denethor's perception of his struggle with Mordor. Did Sauron actually...void himself? Never mind. I don't want to know.
The Professor said, I think in one of the Letters, that Denethor had become too 'political'. He was opposed to Sauron not in a right / wrong or black / white way, but merely because Mordor stood in opposition to the state he served, Gondor. Denethor as a politician was not up to the strain of the War: lacking a moral imperative to resist Sauron, his unwillingness to listen to counsel, and his readiness to kill himself and leave his people leaderless in their darkest times seem to me even more explicable.

[Faramir Jones]

Some interesting points here, Inziladun!

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Interesting way to characterise Denethor's perception of his struggle with Mordor. Did Sauron actually...void himself? Never mind. I don't want to know.
The Professor said, I think in one of the Letters, that Denethor had become too 'political'. He was opposed to Sauron not in a right / wrong or black / white way, but merely because Mordor stood in opposition to the state he served, Gondor. Denethor as a politician was not up to the strain of the War: lacking a moral imperative to resist Sauron, his unwillingness to listen to counsel, and his readiness to kill himself and leave his people leaderless in their darkest times seem to me even more explicable.

I was discussing with a friend whether Gondorian soldiers shouted abuse at the Witch-king and the rest of the Ringwraiths, asking when they were last sexually active. Also, whether they asked if Sauron had sexual organs and if he ever used them or if they were just there for decoration.

She made an excellent point that such things would probably not have happened; because Sauron was not the equivalent of Der Führer Adolf Hitler or German Emperor William II, but of Satan. She reminded me of the phrase 'Speak of the devil', which was derived from the medieval phrase 'Speak of the Devil and he doth appear'.

This was a prohibition against speaking directly about Satan or about evil in general. If one did, Satan might actually appear, with very serious consequences for the person who spoke his name. Certainly, Sauron was spoken of indirectly by Gondorians; and even Mordor was also referred to by euphemisms, such as 'Nameless Land' and 'yonder realm'.

To be fair about Denethor, he did have a moral imperative to resist Sauron: the fact that he was the ruler of Gondor and therefore had an obligation to defend his kingdom and his people. Tolkien talks a little about this in his essay on the Stones in Unfinished Tales:

He [Denethor] was proud, but this was by no means merely personal: he loved Gondor and its people, and deemed himself appointed by destiny to lead them in this desperate time. (Unfinished Tales, p. 408)

Previously, Tolkien pointed out that the effects on Saruman and Denethor of them using the Stones were different:

Saruman fell under the domination of Sauron and desired his victory, or no longer opposed it, Denethor remained steadfast in his rejection of Sauron, but was made to believe that his victory was inevitable, and so fell into despair. The reasons for this difference were no doubt that in the first place Denethor was a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son. (Ibid.)

That said, I agree that Denethor's refusal to continue to fight Sauron even if he so despaired - something which Boromir, for all his faults, would have done - in favour of killing himself, and his attempted murder of Faramir, was inexcusable and a gross breach of his duty as a ruler.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

That said, I agree that Denethor's refusal to continue to fight Sauron even if he so despaired - something which Boromir, for all his faults, would have done - in favor of killing himself, and his attempted murder of Faramir, was inexcusable and a gross breach of his duty as a ruler.

Oh, he had a good excuse - he went mad.

Honestly, I can't totally agree with the idea that Denethor's motives were merely political and lacked of moral dimension. While he was moving towards tyranny under the influence of The Ring, he never reached that point actually and, it seems, was a leader respected by people of Condor. He also was able to raise two outstanding sons whose moral consistency is out of any doubt. Finally, had he been morally indifferent, Denethor would definitely have fallen like Saurian.

The problem of Denethor was, as it looks to me, his attitude - too local and too class-bound. That's why his morality was finally subjugated to the question of his social (and political) STATUS, something that lies in the realm of The Ring. The corrupting power of the latter is not able to sweep away true differences but can deceive one's perception...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

Honestly, I can't totally agree with the idea that Denethor's motives were merely political and lacked of moral dimension. While he was moving towards tyranny under the influence of The Ring, he never reached that point actually and, it seems, was a leader respected by people of Condor.

Do you think Denethor would not have fallen, if the Ring had been in his grasp? It was his son Faramir's for the taking, if he'd wanted it. Even knowing the dire situation of Gondor, Faramir refused the Ring. Denethor would have readily claimed it, with full knowledge that it was a product of Sauron's craft, just as Boromir would have done. How do you explain the differences between Denethor and his younger son, except by painting Farmir as the wiser and clearer-hearted?

Originally Posted by Sarumian

The problem of Denethor was, as it looks to me, his attitude - too local and too class-bound. That's why his morality was finally subjugated to the question of his social (and political) STATUS, something that lies in the realm of The Ring. The corrupting power the latter is not able to sweep away true differences but can deceive one's perception...

But the Númenóreans as a people were well conscious of their standing as the 'High Men' of Middle-earth. Faramir himself was not immune from it:

We...can scarce claim any longer the titile High. We are become Middle Men, of the twilight, but with memory of other things.

The Two Towers The Window On the West

I can't ascribe Denethor's failings solely to class pride. Even as a child, Faramir had the wisdom to know Gandalf was someone to be trusted and listened to. Denethor was not welcoming to Gandalf, perhaps because 'Thorongil', who he'd seen as a rival, had advocated trust in Gandalf to his father, Ecthelion. Allowing perceived threats to one's power and prestige to colour one's views of a councillor seems a pretty political mindset to me.

[Faramir Jones]

I was interested in what you said here, Sarumian:

Originally Posted by Sarumian

Oh, he had a good excuse - he went mad.

Honestly, I can't totally agree with the idea that Denethor's motives were merely political and lacked of moral dimension. While he was moving towards tyranny under the influence of The Ring, he never reached that point actually and, it seems, was a leader respected by people of Condor. He also was able to raise two outstanding sons whose moral consistency is out of any doubt. Finally, had he been morally indifferent, Denethor would definitely have fallen like Saurian.

The problem of Denethor was, as it looks to me, his attitude - too local and too class-bound. That's why his morality was finally subjugated to the question of his social (and political) STATUS, something that lies in the realm of The Ring. The corrupting power the latter is not able to sweep away true differences but can deceive one's perception...

Yes, there is the probability that Denethor II was insane; but in the particular confusion of the siege of Minas Tirith, there was not the time to formally remove him as ruler and replace him with someone else, such as Imrahil.

I agree with you that Denethor II was respected by his people, including by his sons. While there was some grumbling at how he treated Faramir, Gondorians understood the situation, many having no doubt also lost loved ones in the War. I also agree that Denethor was successful as a father.

Tolkien made it clear, in his essay on the Stones in Unfinished Tales, which I quoted earlier, that the difference between Saruman falling under Sauron's influence and Denethor, while still opposing Sauron, falling into despair, was due to the latter being 'a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son'.