If Denethor hadn't committed suicide

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Erendis

Wasn't it Sam who said the Southerlings are black with white tongues or something like that?

Without being able to pinpoint the exact quote (and I've just checked about every entry for 'Swertings', 'Haradrim' and 'Southrons' in the LotR index), I think it actually says black with white teeth and red tongues - which could be seen as a racist caricature, if you're so inclined (although we all have red tongues and more or less white teeth - less in the case of die-hard smokers like yours truly).
Anyway, if anybody could be accused of racism on the basis of this quote, it would be Tolkien himself, not any of the posters on this thread; and as for him, I think he can be defended against this accusation (i.e. of racism in the sense of advocating supremacy of one race over another, which is not saying that racial stereotypes didn't occasionally occur in his thinking & writing) with good arguments, but this is not the thread to open that can of worms.
To get back on topic (well, sort offish), the very fact that Aragorn gave himself an Elvish name like Thorongil would be an indicator not only of Númenorean, but of Gondorian or Arnorian descent, - in my knowledge, no other Mannish people used the Elven tongues in naming; certainly not the Black Númenoreans, who, being descended from the King's Men, had abandoned the Elven languages for Adûnaic back before the Drowning.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

To get back on topic (well, sort offish), the very fact that Aragorn gave himself an Elvish name like Thorongil would be an indicator not only of Númenorean, but of Gondorian or Arnorian descent, - in my knowledge, no other Mannish people used the Elven tongues in naming; certainly not the Black Númenoreans, who, being descended from the King's Men, had abandoned the Elven languages for Adûnaic back before the Drowning.

Ah, but was Thorongil the name he gave himself, or a name that was applied to him by others?

In much that [Ecthelion] did he had the aid and advice of a great captain whom he loved above all. Thorongil men called him in Gondor, the Eagle of the Star, for he was swift and keen-eyed, and wore a silver star upon his cloak; but no one knew his true name nor in what land he was born.

ROTK Appendix A

That gives the impression he was given the name 'Thorongil' as a reflection of men's observations about him. They had to call him something, after all.

I don't recall any mention of whether he was called Thorongil in Rohan.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Ah, but was Thorongil the name he gave himself, or a name that was applied to him by others?

ROTK Appendix A

That gives the impression he was given the name 'Thorongil' as a reflection of men's observations about him. They had to call him something, after all.

I don't recall any mention of whether he was called Thorongil in Rohan.

Perhaps not. An Elvish name wouldn't mean much up there. He must have given some name when he first showed up in Minas Tirith. Of course, perhaps he gave the name that he had acquired in Rohan. At first, people in Gondor probably just knew that he'd come from Rohan and acquired some fame in Thengel's service - presumably 'Thorongil' came with some sort of personal recommendation from Thengel himself (although that's obviously just speculation).

Evidently people in general in Gondor had no clue where Thorongil was from originally. But a learned fellow like Denethor, who had access to all the ancient scrolls, would have been far better informed. He would almost certainly have been at least somewhat familiar with the history of Arnor. He knew about Imladris and Elrond. When Faramir and Boromir came to Denethor many years later with their portentious dream about "The Sword That Was Broken", "Imladris" and "Isildur's Bane" it might not have come as a complete surprise to Denethor that Rivendell might have some connection to the Old North Kingdom. Certainly Denethor seemed aware of what "Isildur's Bane" was and had instructed Boromir to do what he could to bring it to Minas Tirith.

I wonder how much Sauron learned from Denethor regarding this matter? Sauron would have expected someone like Saruman or Denethor to try to sieze the Ring, but he seemed quite surprised when Aragorn revealed himself as the Heir of Isildur in the palantir. Apparently Denethor hadn't given away anything concerning his suspicions about Aragorn!

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

I wonder how much Sauron learned from Denethor regarding this matter? Sauron would have expected someone like Saruman or Denethor to try to sieze the Ring, but he seemed quite surprised when Aragorn revealed himself as the Heir of Isildur in the palantir. Apparently Denethor hadn't given away anything concerning his suspicions about Aragorn!

Was he really surprised to learn there was still one heir of Isildur?Remember that his true identity was hidden from him at teh requrst of his mother.Isn't it an indication that Sauron suspected his existence and propably searced secretly for him?

I think Sauron's reaction was not that surprised as a result of fear-he had suspicions,but the relevance of true caught him unready.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Erendis

Was he really surprised to learn there was still one heir of Isildur?Remember that his true identity was hidden from him at teh requrst of his mother.Isn't it an indication that Sauron suspected his existence and propably searced secretly for him?

I think Sauron's reaction was not that surprised as a result of fear-he had suspicions,but the relevance of true caught him unready.

As I can remember, Sauron's identity was also hidden during the time of Aragorn's childhood.

By the way, as Gandalf believed there was a hope even for Gorlum, though just a little, I think there was even a better chance for Denethor to recover and accept reality after Sauron's end. No, he could hardly have bacome a friend of the king and was too old and weak to carry any service for Gondor, but there were things he could have taken into attention after his despair had withdrawn. First of all, Aragorn had been avoiding claming for power. Secondly, Boromir, while dying, named Aragorn his brother and asked to save Gondor. Thirdly, Aragorn saved Faramir. And finally, Aragorn saved Gondor and made an enormous contribution into the removal of Sauron. If Denethor had understood he was no more able to run the kingdom, then becoming a father of the prince of Ithilien would not have been a dishonour, taking into account that this was a monarchical title for his decendants, wuoldn't it?

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

( less in the case of die-hard smokers like yours truly).

I would call them almond-white. See?(and in real life,I cannot bear even the smell of smoke,just for trivia)

Getting back to the point,I agree with Inziladun.It also sounds quite strange to me for someone to five himself a name about his sharp gaze and silver jewel.An indication of vanity,which for certain Aragorn lacked of,considering his modest character,don't you think?