Admin Thread for LXXIV: War of the Wolves - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Thinlómien · 03-16-2010, 04:09 PM

I have to agree with those who say it's unbalanced to the evil side. The innocent have practically no chance of winning, unless we have 5-10 more players. It will be a horrible bloodbath with all the hunters, two packs of wolves and possible lover revenge kills. And if we have 13 players like now, more than half of the village is evil in the beginning and we have no ordos and not even all the special roles can be included!

I suggest at least three out of the four following, preferably all four:
a) removing the cobbler
b) removing the lovers and the anti-lover
c) removing the gifts from the wolves
d) removing the cursed
otherwise it's not going to work, at least by my logic. Sorry to say because it changes the game quite a lot... Or then you really need far far more players. This far there are already 16 special roles, so you would need more than twenty players to make this work, I would even say 25 with all this massacre...

I suggest reconsidering a bit.

As a handy hint, make yourselves a demonstration to test the game mechanics: simulate the game and keep a tally. Just roll the dice to see who is lynched each Day and who is chosen by whom each Night. Try out with different starting roles until you find one that looks fair to all parties.

Pitchwife · 03-16-2010, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lommy

This far there are already 16 special roles, so you would need more than twenty players to make this work, I would even say 25 with all this massacre...

And if we got to such numbers, I'd honestly have to withdraw, much to my own regret - I know my limits.

I'm afraid Lommy's right - all your ideas are really cool as such, and it's a pity to lose any of them, but they may be just too much to fit into a single game. What about making a choice and keeping the rest up your sleeves for next time around?

wilwarin538 · 03-16-2010, 05:48 PM

Hmm. Well perhaps not necessarily getting rid of all the gifted wolves all together. Like 1 wolf pack has a seer!wolf, a hunter!wolf and a normal wolf. Then the other pack has the unicorn!wolf, ranger!wolf and a normal wolf? Too many seers/hunters/rangers can get rather out of hand. Then making the cobbler just a regular cobbler (not enough players though and he may have to go), no cursed at all, and no revenge kill from the lovers (just regular lovers that want to survive, and die together). Then I think that would be far more balanced. I love your Unicorn role, I think that's rather brilliant. What I suggested before about allignments would be the only thing I think you may want to change for that role.

Having 6 wolves certainly will not make it impossible for the village. Sally had a game with 6 wolves (I was one) and we still managed to lose, haha. So that's certainly not the problem. Just too many powers, too many oppurtunities for them to have more allies, and far too much death (yes, that is possible in a WW game, haha).

It's such a brilliant game Lottie, I can tell you guys thought this out a lot. It would be lovely to have everything the way it is, but it could very well result in your game ending far too soon.

Loslote · 03-16-2010, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

So when one of the Unicorns dies they could potentially come back to life as well?

And what if a wolf is chosen to come back, and comes back as an innocent. Couldn't they reveal all their packmates to the whole village? If so perhaps anyone who dies should come back with the same alignment, but the role could change. Like Bob is the seer!wolf, he dies and comes back when the unicorn dies, Bob goes back to the same wolf pack but is maybe now another role (like perhaps a hunter and an ord are the other ones dead, so Bob could be another hunter!wolf or just a regular wolf (ord!wolf?haha), but for the same pack he was in before he died). That would just make it so a wolf couldn't change alignments and then be able to reveal all their mates, and conversely it would decrease the chance of more wolves being created. But the revived still get a new role no matter what.

Did any of that make sense?

Sorry if I sound nit-picky. I just know a lot of unexpected situations can arise in games with a lot of new and never-before-seen rules, and trying to predict potential problems before hand could save a lot of trouble!

Actually, that does make sense, and it's something I'd never considered before. But...then the village would know, if an evil person comes back, they're still evil. So might have to think more about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I have to agree with those who say it's unbalanced to the evil side. The innocent have practically no chance of winning, unless we have 5-10 more players. It will be a horrible bloodbath with all the hunters, two packs of wolves and possible lover revenge kills. And if we have 13 players like now, more than half of the village is evil in the beginning and we have no ordos and not even all the special roles can be included!

I suggest at least three out of the four following, preferably all four:
a) removing the cobbler
b) removing the lovers and the anti-lover
c) removing the gifts from the wolves
d) removing the cursed
otherwise it's not going to work, at least by my logic. Sorry to say because it changes the game quite a lot... Or then you really need far far more players. This far there are already 16 special roles, so you would need more than twenty players to make this work, I would even say 25 with all this massacre...

I suggest reconsidering a bit. As a handy hint, make yourselves a demonstration to test the game mechanics: simulate the game and keep a tally. Just roll the dice to see who is lynched each Day and who is chosen by whom each Night. Try out with different starting roles until you find one that looks fair to all parties.

Personally, I wouldn't mind removing the Cursed and Cobbler, and switching the one Hunter!wolf for WereUnicorn, but I'll have to talk to Hakon before I can do anything drastic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Hmm. Well perhaps not necessarily getting rid of all the gifted wolves all together. Like 1 wolf pack has a seer!wolf, a hunter!wolf and a normal wolf. Then the other pack has the unicorn!wolf, ranger!wolf and a normal wolf? Too many seers/hunters/rangers can get rather out of hand. Then making the cobbler just a regular cobbler (not enough players though and he may have to go), no cursed at all, and no revenge kill from the lovers (just regular lovers that want to survive, and die together). Then I think that would be far more balanced. I love your Unicorn role, I think that's rather brilliant. What I suggested before about allignments would be the only thing I think you may want to change for that role.

Having 6 wolves certainly will not make it impossible for the village. Sally had a game with 6 wolves (I was one) and we still managed to lose, haha. So that's certainly not the problem. Just too many powers, too many oppurtunities for them to have more allies, and far too much death (yes, that is possible in a WW game, haha).

It's such a brilliant game Lottie, I can tell you guys thought this out a lot. It would be lovely to have everything the way it is, but it could very well result in your game ending far too soon.

Like I said, I'm seriously considering getting rid of the hunters altogether. The Unicorns supposedly keep the game from ending too soon, plus with three Rangers running around, the Nightkills won't be so much of a problem.

wilwarin538 · 03-16-2010, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Actually, that does make sense, and it's something I'd never considered before. But...then the village would know, if an evil person comes back, they're still evil. So might have to think more about that.

hmm, hadn't thought of that either....that makes it difficult.

Perhaps keep the hunter!wolf, but no innocent hunter. Then get rid of the unicorn!wolf and keep the innocent unicorn, and make it so that only an innocent can come back. That balances it, the hunter!wolf dies and takes someone down, the innocent unicorn dies and brings someone back, and if it only applies for innocents then we won't have to worry about allignment.

Loslote · 03-16-2010, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

hmm, hadn't thought of that either....that makes it difficult.

Perhaps keep the hunter!wolf, but no innocent hunter. Then get rid of the unicorn!wolf and keep the innocent unicorn, and make it so that only an innocent can come back. That balances it, the hunter!wolf dies and takes someone down, the innocent unicorn dies and brings someone back, and if it only applies for innocents then we won't have to worry about allignment.

Hmm. This is a possibility. *ponders*

Thinlómien · 03-17-2010, 08:21 AM

I like the way it's shaping.

(But I still think it'd be better if we had more players. So join, all you ninnies who are just stalking this thread!

)

Legate of Amon Lanc · 03-17-2010, 02:08 PM

Okay, I am not so keen on too extraordinary games, but if this is made balanced somehow, I could play

That said, I have played in SpM's game with a ton of wolves in different packs and it was fun, however it didn't have any special rules apart from that... Here, for instance the Lovers are somewhat troubling. If you asked me about one thing which I'd suggest to be removed, it would be that and also the Cursed, as that's an immense advantage for the WWs. Really, Cursed out. The Cobbler gives and advantage too, but I think it can be fun enough with this first-dreamt of determination of taking sides in the pack war. For that matter, what if we changed the Wolf-Seers altogether and just changed them to Cobbler-seekers, i.e. they will just send one name each Night and they would be only told "negative" (the target was not the Cobbler) or "positive" (the target was the Cobbler and now they can PM with him and he is their ally - possibly, if he isn't claimed already by the other team). That would power down the Gifted Wolves, but still retain one aspect of it.

I definitely agree with the idea of making only innocent people return from the dead, as wilwa suggested.

As for the Lovers - it's not such a bad idea in itself, but I think it will be hard for them to survive. Unless they would be an exception to the rule of Unicorning, i.e. that they'd be possible to resurrect, but they would keep their Loverism after that (i.e. they could return even as Wolves or whatnot, but on top of that they would still be Lovers). And the other Lover would, of course, in that case not die, at least not immediately, he/she could either live for let's say one more Day (and hope that an Unicorn gets lynched/killed to resurrect his/her mate), or even live further on without any problem, and just hope that one day the other lover would be revived - until the game ends. Lovers would, of course, have to be shown as innocents in the list of dead in such a case, at least until the time when they'd both be gone. I would remove their revenge kills. There are too many kills already. Honestly. Unless you want the game to end in two days (not necessarily even Days), in which case you could just as well add more Hunters.

But in general, really, Mods, I suggest you to just sit down and simulate it. Try to make different situations. Think about it. That's the best way to do it.

wilwarin538 · 03-17-2010, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The Cobbler gives and advantage too, but I think it can be fun enough with this first-dreamt of determination of taking sides in the pack war. For that matter, what if we changed the Wolf-Seers altogether and just changed them to Cobbler-seekers, i.e. they will just send one name each Night and they would be only told "negative" (the target was not the Cobbler) or "positive" (the target was the Cobbler and now they can PM with him and he is their ally - possibly, if he isn't claimed already by the other team). That would power down the Gifted Wolves, but still retain one aspect of it.

I think this is rather brilliant.

Morsul the Dark · 03-21-2010, 07:20 AM

I know I'm usually annoyingly active but I might to quiet this game... a lot of stuff going on. Then again probably I'll forget about that.

Kitanna · 03-21-2010, 10:26 AM

After looking at my work schedule I'm warning everyone in advance the first few days will see limited activity from me. The way the DL falls fits horribly into when I work so for Day 1 & 2 especially I'll probably only have a few hours to really sit down and play. Sorry work gets in the way of what's really important.

satansaloser2005 · 03-27-2010, 03:58 PM

As Little Lottie said, I'll be calling the Day toDay. However, I have to leave an hour or so beforehand to go see one of my youth girls in the school play, so I'll need all picks before then. That means I'll need everything in in the next two hours or less. Sorry I forgot to mention it last night; I was the teensiest bit distracted. Thanks very much everyone! ^_^

~~Sally~~

03-16-2010, 04:09 PM	#1
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	I have to agree with those who say it's unbalanced to the evil side. The innocent have practically no chance of winning, unless we have 5-10 more players. It will be a horrible bloodbath with all the hunters, two packs of wolves and possible lover revenge kills. And if we have 13 players like now, more than half of the village is evil in the beginning and we have no ordos and not even all the special roles can be included! I suggest at least three out of the four following, preferably all four: a) removing the cobbler b) removing the lovers and the anti-lover c) removing the gifts from the wolves d) removing the cursed otherwise it's not going to work, at least by my logic. Sorry to say because it changes the game quite a lot... Or then you really need far far more players. This far there are already 16 special roles, so you would need more than twenty players to make this work, I would even say 25 with all this massacre... I suggest reconsidering a bit. As a handy hint, make yourselves a demonstration to test the game mechanics: simulate the game and keep a tally. Just roll the dice to see who is lynched each Day and who is chosen by whom each Night. Try out with different starting roles until you find one that looks fair to all parties. __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

03-16-2010, 05:48 PM	#3
wilwarin538 Fluttering Enchantment Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 2,508	Hmm. Well perhaps not necessarily getting rid of all the gifted wolves all together. Like 1 wolf pack has a seer!wolf, a hunter!wolf and a normal wolf. Then the other pack has the unicorn!wolf, ranger!wolf and a normal wolf? Too many seers/hunters/rangers can get rather out of hand. Then making the cobbler just a regular cobbler (not enough players though and he may have to go), no cursed at all, and no revenge kill from the lovers (just regular lovers that want to survive, and die together). Then I think that would be far more balanced. I love your Unicorn role, I think that's rather brilliant. What I suggested before about allignments would be the only thing I think you may want to change for that role. Having 6 wolves certainly will not make it impossible for the village. Sally had a game with 6 wolves (I was one) and we still managed to lose, haha. So that's certainly not the problem. Just too many powers, too many oppurtunities for them to have more allies, and far too much death (yes, that is possible in a WW game, haha). It's such a brilliant game Lottie, I can tell you guys thought this out a lot. It would be lovely to have everything the way it is, but it could very well result in your game ending far too soon. __________________ Comme une étoile amarante Comme un papillon de nuit C'est la lumière qui m'attire La flamme qui m'éblouit Fenris Muffin

03-17-2010, 08:21 AM	#7
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	I like the way it's shaping. (But I still think it'd be better if we had more players. So join, all you ninnies who are just stalking this thread! ) __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

03-17-2010, 02:08 PM	#8
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Okay, I am not so keen on too extraordinary games, but if this is made balanced somehow, I could play That said, I have played in SpM's game with a ton of wolves in different packs and it was fun, however it didn't have any special rules apart from that... Here, for instance the Lovers are somewhat troubling. If you asked me about one thing which I'd suggest to be removed, it would be that and also the Cursed, as that's an immense advantage for the WWs. Really, Cursed out. The Cobbler gives and advantage too, but I think it can be fun enough with this first-dreamt of determination of taking sides in the pack war. For that matter, what if we changed the Wolf-Seers altogether and just changed them to Cobbler-seekers, i.e. they will just send one name each Night and they would be only told "negative" (the target was not the Cobbler) or "positive" (the target was the Cobbler and now they can PM with him and he is their ally - possibly, if he isn't claimed already by the other team). That would power down the Gifted Wolves, but still retain one aspect of it. I definitely agree with the idea of making only innocent people return from the dead, as wilwa suggested. As for the Lovers - it's not such a bad idea in itself, but I think it will be hard for them to survive. Unless they would be an exception to the rule of Unicorning, i.e. that they'd be possible to resurrect, but they would keep their Loverism after that (i.e. they could return even as Wolves or whatnot, but on top of that they would still be Lovers). And the other Lover would, of course, in that case not die, at least not immediately, he/she could either live for let's say one more Day (and hope that an Unicorn gets lynched/killed to resurrect his/her mate), or even live further on without any problem, and just hope that one day the other lover would be revived - until the game ends. Lovers would, of course, have to be shown as innocents in the list of dead in such a case, at least until the time when they'd both be gone. I would remove their revenge kills. There are too many kills already. Honestly. Unless you want the game to end in two days (not necessarily even Days), in which case you could just as well add more Hunters. But in general, really, Mods, I suggest you to just sit down and simulate it. Try to make different situations. Think about it. That's the best way to do it. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

03-21-2010, 07:20 AM	#10
Morsul the Dark Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,448	I know I'm usually annoyingly active but I might to quiet this game... a lot of stuff going on. Then again probably I'll forget about that. __________________ Morsul the Resurrected

03-21-2010, 10:26 AM	#11
Kitanna Child of the West Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Watching President Fillmore ride a unicorn Posts: 2,132	After looking at my work schedule I'm warning everyone in advance the first few days will see limited activity from me. The way the DL falls fits horribly into when I work so for Day 1 & 2 especially I'll probably only have a few hours to really sit down and play. Sorry work gets in the way of what's really important. __________________ "Let us live so that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

03-27-2010, 03:58 PM	#12
satansaloser2005 The Sweetest Spoiler Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: from beneath you it giggles incessantly Posts: 5,789	Important announcement As Little Lottie said, I'll be calling the Day toDay. However, I have to leave an hour or so beforehand to go see one of my youth girls in the school play, so I'll need all picks before then. That means I'll need everything in in the next two hours or less. Sorry I forgot to mention it last night; I was the teensiest bit distracted. Thanks very much everyone! ^_^ ~~Sally~~ __________________ "My heart always cowers behind the defense of my wit." Friendship is two pals munching on a well-cooked face together. Fenris bookworm.