Imagine no religion

[skip spence]

Great replies all around, I feel much educated. There are many things I'd like to address in full but I've not enough time now, sadly.

Just a few things I'd like to throw into the mix now.

In Cirith Ungol and at the brink of despair, Frodo remembers his phial and basically prays for Elbereth, the Lightgiver, to deliver him, wouldn't you say?

And how about the Pukel Men and their ominous statues? Isn't this a form of religiousness that isn't related to the "true" nature of divinity in Middle Earth?

And thirdly, temples... Temples are always bad, aren't they? Why do you think this is?

Legate, there is a text in one of the HoME volumes, think it is X, where a post LotR Tolkien tries to tie in his sub-creation to the Christian tradition, much in the same way he tries to tie in his world with modern scientific knowledge, for instance that life could not have existed prior to the Sun and so on. Read that one?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

In Cirith Ungol and at the brink of despair, Frodo remembers his phial and basically prays for Elbereth, the Lightgiver, to deliver him, wouldn't you say?

Certainly. And I think basically all the cries to Elbereth are some form of "prayer", basically every time somebody calls "Elbereth! Gilthoniel!" - Weathertop, Shelob's Lair, the weird moment when getting past the gate with the Silent Watchers and so on - it is something like that. It would be interesting to judge how much it is a) a prayer (as opposed to "spell" - but in these cases it somehow is both and it does not violate the fact that prayer is turning to somebody, but not manipulating somebody - i.e. not "magic"), b) a conscious prayer (often the characters are crying out words they themselves do not know or understand - now what exactly is this? For me, the immediate thought is - as I have been encountering this subject much - "speaking in tongues" or glossolalia (if you don't know what it is, don't worry or if you are interested, you can look it up, but I don't think it's important here, just easy for guidance for somebody who knows) which is exactly the same kind of stuff - a "prayer in tongues" would be exactly the same sort of thing - yet I fail to grasp how exactly should this be taken: is the prayer in Elvish where the words come to Frodo from some other source still a prayer in the sense of being initiated by Frodo - a will of the one who calls, or is he then just some "channel" - but then again - who is the initiator? Does then for instance Elbereth "call to herself"? Or how does this work?).

And how about the Pukel Men and their ominous statues? Isn't this a form of religiousness that isn't related to the "true" nature of divinity in Middle Earth?

Well, but are the statues not just portrayal of the Pukel-Men themselves? At least as far as I know - the tale of Aghan the Drugh was about "magic" of the statues, I would say, that was a sort of "Golem", but otherwise I think the statues didn't have any religious connotations, not any more than some random statue of Elendil or whatever?

And thirdly, temples... Temples are always bad, aren't they? Why do you think this is?

Quite, which is interesting. Various ideas come to mind, maybe just for now, one idea - since temple is often understood as the place of dwelling of a deity, but the deities are of course dwelling in quite well defined concrete places in Arda, then possibly the only thing a temple is good for is mischief. But that's just a very random idea, it would be interesting to think of that deeper. I would like to read some other suggestions myself...

Legate, there is a text in one of the HoME volumes, think it is X, where a post LotR Tolkien tries to tie in his sub-creation to the Christian tradition, much in the same way he tries to tie in his world with modern scientific knowledge, for instance that life could not have existed prior to the Sun and so on. Read that one?

Actually, not really and not yet. There is a lot that I would like to read, basically all the HoME, I have read only very little as I also don't have them all and only some two years ago I got the chance to get to read at least some of them, as they are not generally available in my home country. I have heard some rumours. Well, another thing to put on my "to-read" schedule

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

And thirdly, temples... Temples are always bad, aren't they? Why do you think this is?

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Quite, which is interesting. Various ideas come to mind, maybe just for now, one idea - since temple is often understood as the place of dwelling of a deity, but the deities are of course dwelling in quite well defined concrete places in Arda, then possibly the only thing a temple is good for is mischief. But that's just a very random idea, it would be interesting to think of that deeper. I would like to read some other suggestions myself...

I like Legate's answer to that. It's interesting that the only known example of a dedicated temple for worship in ME was the one erected under Sauron's influence in Númenor. As Sauron wished to be king and god of all in Middle-earth, and was in that temple during the Downfall, sitting on a 'black seat', the idea that the 'real' gods dwelt in the West and anything else was false, I think holds some weight.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

..often the characters are crying out words they themselves do not know or understand - now what exactly is this? For me, the immediate thought is - as I have been encountering this subject much - "speaking in tongues" or glossolalia (if you don't know what it is, don't worry or if you are interested, you can look it up, but I don't think it's important here, just easy for guidance for somebody who knows) which is exactly the same kind of stuff - a "prayer in tongues" would be exactly the same sort of thing - yet I fail to grasp how exactly should this be taken: is the prayer in Elvish where the words come to Frodo from some other source still a prayer in the sense of being initiated by Frodo - a will of the one who calls, or is he then just some "channel" - but then again - who is the initiator? Does then for instance Elbereth "call to herself"? Or how does this work?).

Yeah that is odd. I think that Frodo begs for help, and this is his own will at work, but when Elbereth complies, he becomes "a channel" for her, it is she who places the words in his mouth, assists him, gives him the power to resist. Similarly, it is explicitly stated that Ulmo spoke through Tuor in the later Fall Of Gondolin. Bah, I'm sort of drunk, this is too much for me now...

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Legate, there is a text in one of the HoME volumes, think it is X, where a post LotR Tolkien tries to tie in his sub-creation to the Christian tradition, much in the same way he tries to tie in his world with modern scientific knowledge, for instance that life could not have existed prior to the Sun and so on. Read that one?

That would be Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (in HoME X indeed), a dialogue between Finrod Felagund and Andreth, a mortal Wise Woman, on the subject of Mannish mortality. Appended to it is Adanel's Tale, a Middle-earth version of the Fall of Man, dealing with Eru's interaction with the first Men shortly after their Awakening, their seduction by Morgoth and finally the repentance of some of them (the fathers and mothers of the Edain) and their search for escape from the Shadow. Athrabeth itself also contains some foreshadowing of the Incarnation, hinting that Eru himself might one day enter into Arda to set things right.
If I remember correctly, Tolkien ended up rejecting the latter as being too much like 'a parody of Christianity' (his own words), and I tend to agree with him there. Still, I wouldn't want to miss the whole; it's a very moving piece of writing - not the least because it contains, as far as I'm aware of, the only love-story between a male elf and a mortal woman (rather than the other way round) in the whole Legendarium.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

That would be Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (in HoME X indeed)

Yeah that's the one. It's been years since I read it but the way I remember it the text really underlined the feeling I get that Eru is a very close approximation to the Christian God. And although there's little religious practice in LotR, there certainly is a deeply religious undertone in the book. I think it is expressed explicitly in Athrabeth that you gotta have faith that Eru in the end won't allow Morgoth or Sauron to prevail. This is the most important moral test. Eru is the One, it is his world, and eventually, finally, everything will be fine and dandy, because He is Good and He wants what's Good.

This is why Gandalf and Elrond makes the decision to send the ring into Mordor with Frodo, isn't it? They are wise, and their wisdom lies in the faith that it will succeed, it must succeed. Rationally they doubt that it will work, because logically it really is a stupid idea, but their hearts tell them it will work nevertheless. I've heard people gasp "how come Sauron is so dumb, never guessing what his enemies plan to do with the ring!" but I don't see it that way. Sauron is a sort of atheist (I know it sound weird but think about it!) and moral-relativist. He does not understand faith and therefore, the way he sees things, sending a halfling on a suicide mission into Mordor is too far out to even consider. And I can see why.

Originally Posted by Legate

Once again one has to ask, if you ask "Why do you think it is?" are you asking "inside" or "outside"?

True, and in this instance I am more interested in the "outside" perspective, because from an inside perspective this lack of religion and religious diversity makes little sense imo, unless we surmise that the peoples really did practice various religions but that this is omitted in the narrative. So why did Tolkien write it like this then? I've ideas that resemble some of what has been written here already, but they have to wait a bit, no more time now...

Originally Posted by Legate

Well, but are the statues not just portrayal of the Pukel-Men themselves? At least as far as I know - the tale of Aghan the Drugh was about "magic" of the statues, I would say, that was a sort of "Golem", but otherwise I think the statues didn't have any religious connotations, not any more than some random statue of Elendil or whatever?

Yeah, but is the power of the statues derived only from their makers ? From an anthropological standpoint I find that rather hard to believe. And the way say the Chinese worship their ancestors is a religious practice of sorts to, isn't it?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Yeah, but is the power of the statues derived only from their makers ? From an anthropological standpoint I find that rather hard to believe. And the way say the Chinese worship their ancestors is a religious practice of sorts to, isn't it?

Yes, but then one would ask, how did the Drúedain see it? Did they consider it a religious thing, worshipping, or was it just statues, resp. veneration of ancestors at most? And as far as I know, I don't see any evidence for that - that the statues would be anything more than statues (once again, like I said, no more than a statue of Elendil or whatever).

The power of the statues was likened to the Ring - indeed the story of the "Faithful stone" is obvious parallel - so if it was really there (that is, if the story is not just a fairy-tale told by Men about these scary statues the Drúedain build), it was some sort of "magic" as much as the "magic" of the Elves or maybe even more of the Dwarves, simply the kind of thing that made Orcrist glow in the dark or that trapped light inside the Silmarils or that bound power inside the Rings, if we were to get back to that one (although the glowing sword example is probably the best, as it is the most "crude" of all those).

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by skip spence

. And although there's little religious practice in LotR, there certainly is a deeply religious undertone in the book.

Very true. I would perhaps look at it another way, to make a distinction between religion and spirituality. While there is little organised religion in LotR, what does stand out is a deep spirituality. Religion is about rules and organisation and control but spirituality is about relationships with something larger than oneself.

All of the major characters--Frodo, Sam, Aragorn, Arwen--display this powerful sense of relating to something larger than themselves. Merry and Pippin learn this. Possibly Eowyn also. Whether Elrond and Galadriel share it is, in my opinion, a bit doubtful as the elves tend to be very inward--read 'self'--oriented, despite their clear concern for history and art and the battle with Sauron. Isildur, for instance, didn't get it. Nor did Boromir, until too late, but Faramir understood.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Very true. I would perhaps look at it another way, to make a distinction between religion and spirituality. While there is little organised religion in LotR, what does stand out is a deep spirituality. Religion is about rules and organisation and control but spirituality is about relationships with something larger than oneself.

Yeah you're right, spirituality is a better word to describe it.

Whether Elrond and Galadriel share it is, in my opinion, a bit doubtful as the elves tend to be very inward--read 'self'--oriented, despite their clear concern for history and art and the battle with Sauron.

Here I would disagree though. For reasons I think I explained above, I would almost equate wisdom with this spirituality you speak of, and they, together with Gandalf, are the wisest people about.

[Bêthberry]

[QUOTE=skip spence;622258]Yeah you're right, spirituality is a better word to describe it.

Well, I wasn't meaning to suggest just a better word, but a concept that might be more encompassing for what exists in LotR. What is it that prompts Frodo to accept the burden of carrying the Ring? What is it that prompts Sam to accompany him? What helps Eowyn recover? I think this is a very interesting question to ask about Middle-earth, and I tried to rep the thread but alas I haven't been generous enough since last I repped you.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

Whether Elrond and Galadriel share it is, in my opinion, a bit doubtful as the elves tend to be very inward--read 'self'--oriented, despite their clear concern for history and art and the battle with Sauron.

Originally Posted by skip spence

Here I would disagree though. For reasons I think I explained above, I would almost equate wisdom with this spirituality you speak of, and they, together with Gandalf, are the wisest people about.

Well, it depends on which book we are discussing, LotR, The Silm, etc., because the elves differ very much in those two books.

The elves have failed in LotR. Despite all the wisdom--ie, knowledge of ancient times--we are told they have, their time is passing and while they can support and aid Frodo's journey to destroy the Ring, their presence in Middle-earth is doomed. Gandalf might indeed be a pillar of wisdom, but that is because he seems able to understand what is or might be necessary to accomplish his role. Widsom can also mean awareness to understand what is needful, and by that meaning, Frodo caps them all. But perhaps this is straying away from your point about the lack of formal religious observances.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

The elves have failed in LotR. Despite all the wisdom--ie, knowledge of ancient times--we are told they have, their time is passing and while they can support and aid Frodo's journey to destroy the Ring, their presence in Middle-earth is doomed. Gandalf might indeed be a pillar of wisdom, but that is because he seems able to understand what is or might be necessary to accomplish his role. Widsom can also mean awareness to understand what is needful, and by that meaning, Frodo caps them all. But perhaps this is straying away from your point about the lack of formal religious observances.

You seem to indirectly be saying that by obeying the wish of the One in taking the Ring, as he was 'meant' to do, Fordo is worshipping Ilúvatar. By the same token, Gandalf and Galadriel are doing the same by their aiding of the One's designs for Middle-earth. Having the wisdom to accept one's place in the world and to do good because one knows they ought to is worship enough.
Would that knowledge and acceptance supersede the need for organised worship in those who are 'good'? If not, why is it that the sole instance of 'community' worship in a dedicated building is that in Númenor with the Satantic / Melkor cult started by Sauron? I think that must be significant somehow.