If Denethor hadn't committed suicide

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Erendis

But why would he cause controversy by not hiding he was of Numenorian lineage?Whould he have been the first or last offspring of a mixed couple-although since the Kin-strife it might have been a taboo,so many years after that almost none would have been bothered-?Didn't Gondor have merchants?Travelers?How impossible scenario is a wanderer son have wants to serve his ancestors' lands?

It seems to me that all the remaining Dúnedain in Middle-earth were confined to two areas: Eriador and Gondor. If Aragorn had been known to have been of the Dúnedain, where could he reasonably have said that he came from, if not the North? If he claimed to be from 'outside' and was obviously Númeórean by looks, I think that would have raised some questions.
If he claimed anywhere in Gondor as his origin, that claim could have been investigated. I can well see Denethor 'checking Thorongil's references', perhaps with the hope of catching him in a lie.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If he claimed anywhere in Gondor as his origin, that claim could have been investigated. I can well see Denethor 'checking Thorongil's references', perhaps with the hope of catching him in a lie.

Perhaps Denethor did search Gondor...

...and that's why he was extra-suspicious of Thorongil's origins, when no one else seems to have been. And what could Denethor make of it, if Thorongil was from the North? That's no reason not to serve Gondor or be untrustworthy... but, if Denethor's suspicions were right, and Thorongil was making a play for the throne, revealing that he was Arnorian might be the first step to Thorongil revealing he was the Heir of Isildur. Far better, in such a case, to abet the idea that Thorongil was from an obscure corner of Gondor--Andrast, maybe--than to put the idea in people's heads that Thorongil could actually supplant him.

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If he claimed to be from 'outside' and was obviously Númeórean by looks, I think that would have raised some questions.

Would it?I think that the beloved Thorongilya was not the most open to questions around,especially when we see that if he wanted something to be kept secret,he wouldn't reveal it for any reason.In fact,not even Ecthelion,whom he respected so much,having a clear identity of his true origins would be a surprise to me.

And miraculously,for once again we do not regard to the main subgect of the thread!

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It seems to me that all the remaining Dúnedain in Middle-earth were confined to two areas: Eriador and Gondor. If Aragorn had been known to have been of the Dúnedain, where could he reasonably have said that he came from, if not the North? If he claimed to be from 'outside' and was obviously Númeórean by looks, I think that would have raised some questions.
If he claimed anywhere in Gondor as his origin, that claim could have been investigated. I can well see Denethor 'checking Thorongil's references', perhaps with the hope of catching him in a lie.

Denethor certainly had suspicious about Thorongil and he must have wondered where he came from. Since I raised the question about Aragorn's "obviously Numenorean appearance" I will add that I don't just mean Aragorn's hair, skin or eye colour but also his height. He was extremely tall.

One reason why Aragorn can't have had much of a physical disguise is that his resemblance to Denethor was noted at the time. Given that Aragorn played the part of Thorongil for 23 years, it's hard to think that he could have maintained a physical disguise for that long! I think the "disguise" just refers to his assumed name and background.

I can understand why a young fellow like Eomer doesn't recognise Aragorn, since he wasn't born in the time of "Thorongil". Even Theoden was fairly young at the time but in Gondor some people were relatively long-lived.

Outside of Minas Tirith, Gondor was fairly sparsely populated. Aside from Pelagir and Dol Amroth there weren't many major 'population centres'. Aragorn wasn't blonde-haired or blue-eyed so he would have had a hard time passing himself off as one of the Rohirrim! Clearly he was Numenorean - so not from Rohan or Laketown etc. Denethor (and for that matter Ecthelion) must have had a pretty good idea of where Thorongil was from. Thorongil's championing of Gandalf might have been another indicator, since Gandalf spent most of his time in the North. Perhaps some rumours of the Northern Dunedain were heard in Gondor, but Aragorn must have been the first proof of their existence, unless one of his more recent ancestors had also spent time in Gondor.

As for the original question - I suspect that Aragorn would have been very sensitive to Denethor's feelings. Perhaps he might have come up with some way for Denethor to save face? Maybe Denethor would have accepted some role like "Prince of Ithilien". Aragorn would have no doubt tried as hard as possible for Denethor to retain his dignity and usefulness. Otherwise Denethor would just have become a thorn in Aragorn's side - a bitter old man with little to live for since he would regard King Elessar as an upstart who had robbed the rightful family of their legacy.

[Formendacil]

One thing that is worth noting is that as late at the Fell Winter in 2911-12, a mere 19 years before Aragorn's birth, there continued to be a settlement at Tharbad. Unlike the general population of the surviving Arnorian Rangers, this settlement on the Greenway to Bree would have been more publicly known, and any traders between there and Rohan and Gondor would have passed that way.

Given that Tharbad was almost certainly a Númenorean settlement, or at least mixed including those of Númenorean blood--possibly also those of Bree/Dunlendish ethnicity, it isn't that strange from a Rohirric or Gondorian perspective to encounter Thorongil as a Númenorean stranger out of the North. Possibly, they might think, he would be ignorant of his ancestral origins, and unlikely to be as "pure blooded" as a Gondorian (remember that business with Eldacar? He looked and acted like a pure Númenorean, but that wasn't good enough for Gondor--he was halfblood and they knew it)--but hardly all that odd. A rarity, to be sure, but not unexpected.

I'm coming to the conclusion that it would not be strange at all from the Gondorian perspective to learn there were some descendants with Númenorean blood in the North. This was not Aragorn's secret. The secret, rather, was that the Line of Isildur persisted, and that the legal structure of Arnor had not ended in the aftermath of Arvedui, but persisted in the paramilitary Rangers and their unknown guard on Bree and the Shire (and their own settlements in the Angle, and, earlier, Tharbad). Aragorn's secret was not that he was Arnorian, but that there was still an Arnor and that he was its chieftain.

[Erendis]

I have completely forgotten Tharbant!Thanks for reminding me,Formedacil!
When I will write a fanfiction on Thorongil,I will enclude that theory too!

[Morwen]

The word "disguise" does seem to indicate some change in physical appearance. To merely change your name and give someone a phony backstory about yourself seems to me the actions of some who wishes to be incognito not "in disguise". The disguise need not be that radical. It does not mean that Aragorn had to cease to look like someone with Numenorean blood. The idea could simply be to alter his appearance enough so that on the off chance that someone from Gondor or farther afield had ever seen Aragorn they would not think that Thorongil was the same person.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Morwen

The word "disguise" does seem to indicate some change in physical appearance. To merely change your name and give someone a phony backstory about yourself seems to me the actions of some who wishes to be incognito not "in disguise". The disguise need not be that radical. It does not mean that Aragorn had to cease to look like someone with Numenorean blood. The idea could simply be to alter his appearance enough so that on the off chance that someone from Gondor or farther afield had ever seen Aragorn they would not think that Thorongil was the same person.

Aragorn does this all the time.

When Frodo first meets him in Bree, he is merely "Strider"--tall and lanky, foul rather than fair, and certainly no King. However, this is more than a mere question of a change of clothes in Rivendell--that is noted on at the end of "Many Meetings" but there is nothing else--he's still Strider, just in nicer clothes. When he's back in his regular clothes for the Council of Elrond, Tolkien makes a point of mentioning that Boromir looks him over doubtfully--little does he resemble the graven images of Elendil and Isildur in the Hall of the Kings.

However... if we jump forward to the approach of the Argonath:

Originally Posted by The Great River

'Fear not!' said a strange voice behind him. Frodo turned and saw Strider, and yet not Strider; for the weatherworn Ranger was no longer there. In the stern sat Aragorn son of Arathorn, proud and erect, guiding the boat with skilful strokes; his hood was cast back, and his dark hair was blowing in the wind, a light was in his eyes: a king returning from exile to his own land.

No change of clothes, no change of circumstances... but a complete and total change from Strider to Aragorn. My memory wants to say there's a few more instances of similar transformations--perhaps in Rohan somewhere and certainly "The hands of a king are the hands of a healer" but this is the only quote I'm going to cite. I don't think another can top it.

I also think I hardly need to explain what I'm saying--Aragorn's "disguise" is to hide his kingliness. He's still clearly a Ranger, a Númenorean--the Dúnadan, as Elrond's people call him--but as Aragorn son of Arathorn he is something unique.

Now... exactly how that works, I don't claim to know.

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Aragorn does this all the time.

When Frodo first meets him in Bree, he is merely "Strider"--tall and lanky, foul rather than fair, and certainly no King. However, this is more than a mere question of a change of clothes in Rivendell--that is noted on at the end of "Many Meetings" but there is nothing else--he's still Strider, just in nicer clothes. When he's back in his regular clothes for the Council of Elrond, Tolkien makes a point of mentioning that Boromir looks him over doubtfully--little does he resemble the graven images of Elendil and Isildur in the Hall of the Kings.

However... if we jump forward to the approach of the Argonath:



No change of clothes, no change of circumstances... but a complete and total change from Strider to Aragorn. My memory wants to say there's a few more instances of similar transformations--perhaps in Rohan somewhere and certainly "The hands of a king are the hands of a healer" but this is the only quote I'm going to cite. I don't think another can top it.

I also think I hardly need to explain what I'm saying--Aragorn's "disguise" is to hide his kingliness. He's still clearly a Ranger, a Númenorean--the Dúnadan, as Elrond's people call him--but as Aragorn son of Arathorn he is something unique.

Now... exactly how that works, I don't claim to know.

I agree with you that Aragorn seems to have an ability to keep the essence (?) of who he is under wraps. He can seem unassuming enough but there is "a light in his eyes that when they were kindled few could endure".(Appendix A (v), Tale of Aragorn and Arwen)

There is also a "clothes make the man" transformation in Appendix A in the tale of Arwen and Aragorn.

"... and Galadriel bade him cast aside his wayworn raiment, and she clothed him in silver and white, with a cloak of elven grey and a bright gem on his brow. Then more than any kind of Men he appeared, and seemed rather an Elf-lord from the Isles of the West."

About 2 or 3 paragraphs before this description we are told this about Aragorn's appearance:

"His ways were hard and long, and he became somewhat grim to look upon, unless he chanced to smile; and yet he seemed to Men worthy of honour, as a king that is in exile, when he did not hide his true shape. For he went in many guises, and won renown under many names." (emphasis mine)

At certain points it seems he did do more that simply hide his kingliness. I suppose more drastic alterations to his appearances might be necessary when venturing into places where the population did not look like him.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morwen

At certain points it seems he did do more that simply hide his kingliness. I suppose more drastic alterations to his appearances might be necessary when venturing into places where the population did not look like him.

Precisely. Aragorn's forays into Rhûn and the Harad come to mind. In those places, anyone pegged as a 'Westerner' would probably have been killed.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Precisely. Aragorn's forays into Rhûn and the Harad come to mind. In those places, anyone pegged as a 'Westerner' would probably have been killed.

Yes... but would Aragorn necessarily have been pegged as a Westerner? Black Númenoreans settled the coasts of Middle-earth everywhere but the northwest. True, they do not seem to have had kingdoms in the sense of Gondor or Arnor--Umbar is the closest thing we have--but they seem to have been prominent in the service of Sauron from Herumor and Fuinil in the days of the Last Alliance down through the Mouth during the War of the Ring. To me it seems possible that Aragorn, if looking scruffy and unkingly, may well have appeared a stranger, but not necessarily a Westerner. And where wasn't he a stranger--he was a stranger in Rohan, Gondor, and Bree? That this'd be his modus operandi in Rhûn and Harad is not a surprise...