If Denethor hadn't committed suicide - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eönwë · 03-10-2010, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitanna

imagine how the end would go if Tolkien left Denethor alive for Aragorn to fight (verbally not physically) after all that he'd already been though.

A sort of Scouring of Gondor?

Kitanna · 03-10-2010, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eönwë

A sort of Scouring of Gondor?

Not in so violent of terms though.

Faramir Jones · 03-10-2010, 01:43 PM

It's too bad that Faramir and Éoywn haven't married and had children yet, and that Denethor is not a 'modern' politician, otherwise he might be tempted to use his grandchildren.

There's an interesting list called the Evil Overlord List, which sets out the steps a person should take to set up a successful evil empire:

http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

I had a good laugh imagining Denethor doing something like this:

142. If I have children and subsequently grandchildren, I will keep my three-year-old granddaughter near me at all times. When the hero enters to kill me, I will ask him to first explain to her why it is necessary to kill her beloved grandpa. When the hero launches into an explanation of morality way over her head, that will be her cue to pull the lever and send him into the pit of crocodiles. After all, small children like crocodiles almost as much as Evil Overlords and it's important to spend quality time with the grandkids.

The Mouth of Sauron · 03-10-2010, 07:16 PM

If Denethor had lived after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields and been introduced to Aragorn, he would have remembered him as Thorongil. And he might legitimately have asked Aragorn why, if his claim to the Kingship was genuine, he didn't press that claim when he served Denethor's father under the guise of Thorongil.

Inziladun · 03-10-2010, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

If Denethor had lived after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields and been introduced to Aragorn, he would have remembered him as Thorongil. And he might legitimately have asked Aragorn why, if his claim to the Kingship was genuine, he didn't press that claim when he served Denethor's father under the guise of Thorongil.

Interesting. I think the knowledge that 'Thorongil' was truthfully Aragorn probably did belong to Denethor, and that would have played a part in his contesting Aragorn's claim, since Denethor had been jealous of Thorongil's fame and influence with Denethor's father, Ecthelion II.
What would Aragorn's response to Denethor pressing him on that have been? Perhaps something like 'The time was not yet right, Lord Steward. I myself was not ready for the burden, nor had I yet earned it'. I suspect though, that no fair words or deeds on Aragorn's part would have reconciled Denethor to the idea of relinquishing his power and watching Aragorn rule.

alatar · 03-12-2010, 10:12 AM

Why so negative on Denethor? He was a man at the end of his rope. His eldest son, whom maybe he had invested much hope, had failed and had fallen. His realm, whether he was King or Steward, was about to be swept away. He was estranged from his other son, the son that may have reminded him of the days spent with Finduilas, the son that he's sent to a needless (seemingly) death. Atop this, should some miracle occur and Gondor withstand the coming storm, a challenge to Denethor's leadership had appeared, and Denethor wasn't one to not get his way.

So he despairs at the end. What if, instead of suicide, someone, like Gandalf, knocks the Steward off of the pyre with a spear (hmm...now where have I seen that?) and he lives, though is mortally injured.

Assume the rest of the events play out as they do in RotK. Aragorn then could meet with Denethor, who, now that his realm as been saved, his son alive and installed as Steward, could die in peace after making some conciliatory remarks to Aragorn, showing that, at the end, he upholds the office of the Steward, giving up command as the King has returned. He asks for forgiveness, it's granted, and Denethor dies at peace, after murmuring some line about joining Finduilas and Boromir and Aragorn says something about the nobility of it all (or something).

Too much like Theoden's end?

Then how about Denethor, like his first son, decides to take Gandalf's advice and lead his people in the defense of Minas Tirith. He can then mutter a few lines and die after some duel with something interesting.

Sarumian · 03-12-2010, 07:57 PM

I totally agree with Alatar that Denethor's end could have happened on the walls of Minas Tirith or during a desperate attempt to stop Witch King from entering the city if he had followed Gandalf's advice.

It's all looks more complex if he had survived. It looks to me as if Denethor has fallen under the spell of the ring just by knowing about it as Sauman did. But with the end of Sauron and the ring Denethor could have recovered from the spell. In this case he might have changed his view of Aragorn, especially after Aragorn saves Faramir. So Denethor could have resigned and either spend his time with Faramir's family or travel along Boromir's pass to Rivendell, where he could have stayed for good learning the lore and compiling memories just like Bilbo.

03-10-2010, 01:43 PM	#3
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	If there had been grandchildren... It's too bad that Faramir and Éoywn haven't married and had children yet, and that Denethor is not a 'modern' politician, otherwise he might be tempted to use his grandchildren. There's an interesting list called the Evil Overlord List, which sets out the steps a person should take to set up a successful evil empire: http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html I had a good laugh imagining Denethor doing something like this: 142. If I have children and subsequently grandchildren, I will keep my three-year-old granddaughter near me at all times. When the hero enters to kill me, I will ask him to first explain to her why it is necessary to kill her beloved grandpa. When the hero launches into an explanation of morality way over her head, that will be her cue to pull the lever and send him into the pit of crocodiles. After all, small children like crocodiles almost as much as Evil Overlords and it's important to spend quality time with the grandkids.

03-12-2010, 10:12 AM	#6
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Why so negative on Denethor? He was a man at the end of his rope. His eldest son, whom maybe he had invested much hope, had failed and had fallen. His realm, whether he was King or Steward, was about to be swept away. He was estranged from his other son, the son that may have reminded him of the days spent with Finduilas, the son that he's sent to a needless (seemingly) death. Atop this, should some miracle occur and Gondor withstand the coming storm, a challenge to Denethor's leadership had appeared, and Denethor wasn't one to not get his way. So he despairs at the end. What if, instead of suicide, someone, like Gandalf, knocks the Steward off of the pyre with a spear (hmm...now where have I seen that?) and he lives, though is mortally injured. Assume the rest of the events play out as they do in RotK. Aragorn then could meet with Denethor, who, now that his realm as been saved, his son alive and installed as Steward, could die in peace after making some conciliatory remarks to Aragorn, showing that, at the end, he upholds the office of the Steward, giving up command as the King has returned. He asks for forgiveness, it's granted, and Denethor dies at peace, after murmuring some line about joining Finduilas and Boromir and Aragorn says something about the nobility of it all (or something). Too much like Theoden's end? Then how about Denethor, like his first son, decides to take Gandalf's advice and lead his people in the defense of Minas Tirith. He can then mutter a few lines and die after some duel with something interesting. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

03-10-2010, 07:16 PM	#4
The Mouth of Sauron Wight Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Barad-Dur Posts: 196	If Denethor had lived after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields and been introduced to Aragorn, he would have remembered him as Thorongil. And he might legitimately have asked Aragorn why, if his claim to the Kingship was genuine, he didn't press that claim when he served Denethor's father under the guise of Thorongil.

03-12-2010, 07:57 PM	#7
Sarumian Wight Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 129	I totally agree with Alatar that Denethor's end could have happened on the walls of Minas Tirith or during a desperate attempt to stop Witch King from entering the city if he had followed Gandalf's advice. It's all looks more complex if he had survived. It looks to me as if Denethor has fallen under the spell of the ring just by knowing about it as Sauman did. But with the end of Sauron and the ring Denethor could have recovered from the spell. In this case he might have changed his view of Aragorn, especially after Aragorn saves Faramir. So Denethor could have resigned and either spend his time with Faramir's family or travel along Boromir's pass to Rivendell, where he could have stayed for good learning the lore and compiling memories just like Bilbo.