If Denethor hadn't committed suicide - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Legate of Amon Lanc · 03-09-2010, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

Maybe if it was obvious to Denethor that everybody else supported Aragorn then Denethor might have chosen suicide. He clearly didn't want to be Aragorn's Steward and I'm not sure the Aragorn would have wanted him either.

Why such a drastic solution? Even from the brief outline above, I could very well see a possible outcome: Denethor simply resigning and, bitterly, retreating into hiding, an old man forgotten by everyone. Aragorn would have probably offered him at least a nice house in the mountains, maybe in Ithilien, but whether Denethor would have accepted or not is another thing. I imagine him a bit like Saruman, in the sense of a broken man whose world has been shaken and destroyed utterly and who does not know what to do, with the difference that Denethor would not really hate Aragorn, or be so full of hate, after all, it's been victory. He would be just old and sad and bitter, one of those to whom the end of an Age would seem like the end of the world they knew and the beginning of something they do not understand. He will pass into shadows and eventually just disappear, die maybe a few years later, somewhat forgotten. I can already see Aragorn at his funeral and Gandalf giving speech to the Hobbits about him on the way home, something like "he was a great man, but his time has passed and he was bitterly aware of that, yet his wisdom (etc...) after all it was his strength which held Mordor at bay for for half a century..." or something like that. Just try to imagine it, if I try, it's almost appearing in front of my eyes!

Faramir Jones · 03-09-2010, 12:14 PM

It would certainly have been difficult for Denethor, PrinceOfTheHalflings.

While in the short term he would have had some leeway, as Aragorn would not press his claim to the kingship until the War was over, there would be a clash over whether to send a force to the Black Gate to distract Sauron from Frodo and Sam. I've a feeling that Denethor would tell Gandalf that he wasn't going to risk Gondorian lives to support his bright idea of sending a witless halfling (sorry, two witless halflings) into Mordor.

Assuming that the Ring is destroyed, without needing the help of the force sent in the original time line, then the end of the War would mean that Aragorn makes a formal claim to the kingship. Faramir would, as you said, be on Aragorn's side. (I'm assuming that he and Éowyn still meet up in the same way.

) Éomer would also be a supporter, though I'm sure that Denethor would tell him to mind his own business, and not interfere in an 'internal Gondorian matter'.

Denethor would insist that all the legalities be followed, with a meeting of the Council of Gondor where Aragorn can properly make his claim. Things would be extremely difficult for Denethor if he is unable to persuade the Council to reject the claim. I think that most of the Council, including Prince Imrahil, would be in favour of Aragorn, not just because of the legitimacy of his candidacy, but because he had demonstrated his ability to defeat the enemies of Gondor, like Eärnil II.

While I agree completely, Prince, that 'He [Denethor] clearly didn't want to be Aragorn's Steward and I'm not sure that Aragorn would have wanted him either', I don't believe that Denethor would commit suicide for that reason. In LotR, he committed suicide because his mind had become unhinged after seeing the huge forces ranged against Gondor, and the seemingly mortal wound of his only surviving son. In this situation, Faramir would be alive and well, and Gondor victorious.

I agree with Legate of Amon Lanc here, that Denethor would probably resign the stewardship in favour of Faramir, then retire into private life, refusing all honours. He would die 'somewhat forgotten', but would certainly survive as a controversial figure in Gondor's history, perhaps referred to as 'Denethor the Unwilling'. As you said, Legate,

I can already see Aragorn at his funeral and Gandalf giving speech to the Hobbits about him on the way home, something like "he was a great man, but his time has passed and he was bitterly aware of that, yet his wisdom (etc...) after all it was his strength which held Mordor at bay for for half a century..." or something like that. Just try to imagine it, if I try, it's almost appearing in front of my eyes!

I can also forsee some rows in the future, with Elboron defending his grandfather's behaviour to his parents and to others.

alatar · 03-10-2010, 09:35 AM

What if, after Aragorn claims the Kingship and Faramir the Stewardship, Denethor has an epiphany, eats some humble pie, and decides that he's glad to be quit of these times, and lets go of his desires and goes off to wander the world (or visit the places his dead son last walked), now that he's more free of care.

Or, instead of committing suicide, he could go mad before the coronation and run off into the night, and people could leave food out for him, and Denethor could vanish into myth.

Faramir Jones · 03-10-2010, 11:46 AM

Tolkien did give an interesting view of Denethor and what he would have done in the event of victory, in notes he wrote in response to W. H. Auden's review of The Return of the King on 22nd January 1956:

Denethor was tained with mere politics: hence his failure, and his mistrust of Faramir. It had become for him a prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it was, against another potentate, who had made himself stronger and was to be feared and opposed for that reason rather then because he was ruthless and wicked. Denethor despised lesser men, and one may be sure did not distinguish between orcs and the allies of Mordor. If he had survived as victor, even without use of the Ring, he would have taken a long stride towards becoming himself a tyrant, and the terms and treatment he accorded to the deluded peoples of east and south would have been cruel and vengeful. He had become a 'political' leader: sc. Gondor against the rest.(Letters, Letter 183, p. 241.)

Kitanna · 03-10-2010, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

What if, after Aragorn claims the Kingship and Faramir the Stewardship, Denethor has an epiphany, eats some humble pie, and decides that he's glad to be quit of these times, and lets go of his desires and goes off to wander the world (or visit the places his dead son last walked), now that he's more free of care.

Or, instead of committing suicide, he could go mad before the coronation and run off into the night, and people could leave food out for him, and Denethor could vanish into myth.

Maybe the humble pie drove him to insanity. Someone always poisons the pie, I swear.

Seriously though I have to agree with alatar here that perhaps going off to travel Boromir's last road would be a possibility. Though I think it's more likely he'd just have to hand the Stewardship over to Faramir and resign himself to private life, probably disappearing entirely from the public's eye, brooding in his own anger/frustration.

Though think of all the politics and extra detail that could be needed in ROTK if Denethor had lived. Tying up the loose ends in a novel can be tedious enough, just imagine how the end would go if Tolkien left Denethor alive for Aragorn to fight (verbally not physically) after all that he'd already been though.

Eönwë · 03-10-2010, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitanna

imagine how the end would go if Tolkien left Denethor alive for Aragorn to fight (verbally not physically) after all that he'd already been though.

A sort of Scouring of Gondor?

Kitanna · 03-10-2010, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eönwë

A sort of Scouring of Gondor?

Not in so violent of terms though.

Faramir Jones · 03-10-2010, 01:43 PM

It's too bad that Faramir and Éoywn haven't married and had children yet, and that Denethor is not a 'modern' politician, otherwise he might be tempted to use his grandchildren.

There's an interesting list called the Evil Overlord List, which sets out the steps a person should take to set up a successful evil empire:

http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

I had a good laugh imagining Denethor doing something like this:

142. If I have children and subsequently grandchildren, I will keep my three-year-old granddaughter near me at all times. When the hero enters to kill me, I will ask him to first explain to her why it is necessary to kill her beloved grandpa. When the hero launches into an explanation of morality way over her head, that will be her cue to pull the lever and send him into the pit of crocodiles. After all, small children like crocodiles almost as much as Evil Overlords and it's important to spend quality time with the grandkids.

03-09-2010, 12:14 PM	#2
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	What would Denethor have done? It would certainly have been difficult for Denethor, PrinceOfTheHalflings. While in the short term he would have had some leeway, as Aragorn would not press his claim to the kingship until the War was over, there would be a clash over whether to send a force to the Black Gate to distract Sauron from Frodo and Sam. I've a feeling that Denethor would tell Gandalf that he wasn't going to risk Gondorian lives to support his bright idea of sending a witless halfling (sorry, two witless halflings) into Mordor. Assuming that the Ring is destroyed, without needing the help of the force sent in the original time line, then the end of the War would mean that Aragorn makes a formal claim to the kingship. Faramir would, as you said, be on Aragorn's side. (I'm assuming that he and Éowyn still meet up in the same way.) Éomer would also be a supporter, though I'm sure that Denethor would tell him to mind his own business, and not interfere in an 'internal Gondorian matter'. Denethor would insist that all the legalities be followed, with a meeting of the Council of Gondor where Aragorn can properly make his claim. Things would be extremely difficult for Denethor if he is unable to persuade the Council to reject the claim. I think that most of the Council, including Prince Imrahil, would be in favour of Aragorn, not just because of the legitimacy of his candidacy, but because he had demonstrated his ability to defeat the enemies of Gondor, like Eärnil II. While I agree completely, Prince, that 'He [Denethor] clearly didn't want to be Aragorn's Steward and I'm not sure that Aragorn would have wanted him either', I don't believe that Denethor would commit suicide for that reason. In LotR, he committed suicide because his mind had become unhinged after seeing the huge forces ranged against Gondor, and the seemingly mortal wound of his only surviving son. In this situation, Faramir would be alive and well, and Gondor victorious. I agree with Legate of Amon Lanc here, that Denethor would probably resign the stewardship in favour of Faramir, then retire into private life, refusing all honours. He would die 'somewhat forgotten', but would certainly survive as a controversial figure in Gondor's history, perhaps referred to as 'Denethor the Unwilling'. As you said, Legate, I can already see Aragorn at his funeral and Gandalf giving speech to the Hobbits about him on the way home, something like "he was a great man, but his time has passed and he was bitterly aware of that, yet his wisdom (etc...) after all it was his strength which held Mordor at bay for for half a century..." or something like that. Just try to imagine it, if I try, it's almost appearing in front of my eyes! I can also forsee some rows in the future, with Elboron defending his grandfather's behaviour to his parents and to others. Last edited by Faramir Jones; 01-16-2011 at 10:49 AM.

03-10-2010, 09:35 AM	#3
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	What if, after Aragorn claims the Kingship and Faramir the Stewardship, Denethor has an epiphany, eats some humble pie, and decides that he's glad to be quit of these times, and lets go of his desires and goes off to wander the world (or visit the places his dead son last walked), now that he's more free of care. Or, instead of committing suicide, he could go mad before the coronation and run off into the night, and people could leave food out for him, and Denethor could vanish into myth. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

03-10-2010, 11:46 AM	#4
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	What Tolkien said Denethor would have done Tolkien did give an interesting view of Denethor and what he would have done in the event of victory, in notes he wrote in response to W. H. Auden's review of The Return of the King on 22nd January 1956: Denethor was tained with mere politics: hence his failure, and his mistrust of Faramir. It had become for him a prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it was, against another potentate, who had made himself stronger and was to be feared and opposed for that reason rather then because he was ruthless and wicked. Denethor despised lesser men, and one may be sure did not distinguish between orcs and the allies of Mordor. If he had survived as victor, even without use of the Ring, he would have taken a long stride towards becoming himself a tyrant, and the terms and treatment he accorded to the deluded peoples of east and south would have been cruel and vengeful. He had become a 'political' leader: sc. Gondor against the rest.(Letters, Letter 183, p. 241.)

03-10-2010, 01:43 PM	#8
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	If there had been grandchildren... It's too bad that Faramir and Éoywn haven't married and had children yet, and that Denethor is not a 'modern' politician, otherwise he might be tempted to use his grandchildren. There's an interesting list called the Evil Overlord List, which sets out the steps a person should take to set up a successful evil empire: http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html I had a good laugh imagining Denethor doing something like this: 142. If I have children and subsequently grandchildren, I will keep my three-year-old granddaughter near me at all times. When the hero enters to kill me, I will ask him to first explain to her why it is necessary to kill her beloved grandpa. When the hero launches into an explanation of morality way over her head, that will be her cue to pull the lever and send him into the pit of crocodiles. After all, small children like crocodiles almost as much as Evil Overlords and it's important to spend quality time with the grandkids.