Thrice shall pay for... what?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

From LotR Book VI, The Field of Cormallen, it seems to me that Gwaihir's brother Landroval, rather than Gwaihir himself, was the King of Eagles mentioned in The Hobbit:

That could be the case, but I don't think the quote you cite is conclusive. It could also be read that Landroval and Gwaihir were the 'greatest of all the Eagles of the North'.
Nevertheless, you're probably right about Gwaihir not being the 'king' of the Eagles. Whenever he's mentioned, it always seems to be in the terms of his being the 'swiftest', or having 'far-seeing eyes', and you'd think if he was the ruler of the Eagles that fact would be somewhere noted.

[Raynor]

Nevertheless, you're probably right about Gwaihir not being the 'king' of the Eagles. Whenever he's mentioned, it always seems to be in the terms of his being the 'swiftest', or having 'far-seeing eyes', and you'd think if he was the ruler of the Eagles that fact would be somewhere noted.

Well the eagles are names as vassals of Gwaihir and Landroval, however only Gwaihir bears the name "the Windlord"; considering the nature of this race, this title should establish his prominence among all the other eagles - I am not quite sure we can imagine another title surpassing it in significance.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Well the eagles are names as vassals of Gwaihir and Landroval, however only Gwaihir bears the name "the Windlord"; considering the nature of this race, this title should establish his prominence among all the other eagles - I am not quite sure we can imagine another title surpassing it in significance.

Now you mention it, it strikes me that "Windlord" is almost a paraphrase of Manwe's own title - Lord of the Breath of Arda. That certainly does suggest he was an Eagle of exceptionally lofty rank. Landroval's name, in comparison, merely means something like "Broad Wing", if I remember my Sindarin right - indicative of stature but not status. Good point.
But if we assume Gwaihir was the King of Eagles from TH, something seems wrong with Gandalf's mathematics, as Ibrin pointed out at the start. Don't pretend Wizards can't count!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Well the eagles are names as vassals of Gwaihir and Landroval, however only Gwaihir bears the name "the Windlord"; considering the nature of this race, this title should establish his prominence among all the other eagles - I am not quite sure we can imagine another title surpassing it in significance.

Then again, Windlord could have been simply another reference to his exceptional speed and flying ability. As I said though, there's certainly room for question there.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

It's even possible that Gwaihir is the current king of the Eagles, since quite a few years have passed since TH, and his predecessor might well have died, from age or illness or an orc arrow (though why the Eagle king should be running errands to Orthanc for Radagast is another thing that makes me think he isn't). Which still makes me wonder: what debt does Gwaihir owe to Gandalf, that thrice should pay for all? It's an untold story, as far as I can tell, and my digging through the HoME books hasn't provided any greater illumination yet.

*sigh*

[Boromir88]

It could just be a literary red-herring (hmm...is that a term? ) used by Tolkien to justify the Eagles insertion into the story. Tolkien calls the Eagles "dangerous machines" that have to be used sparingly, because they are servants of Manwe, and having the Eagles constantly get Gandalf out of tough situations is cheap writing.

Maybe Tolkien just wrote an unexplained "debt" Gwaihir owed Gandalf, to somehow justify Gwaihir's timely appearances and rescues?

[Inziladun]

Another possibility came to mind, prompted by something I remembered Bilbo saying in The Hobbit.

The quote from ROTK that began this thread runs thus:

'Twice you have borne me, Gwaihir my friend,' said Gandalf. 'Thrice shall pay for all, if you're willing.'

When telling the Dwarves he was willing to go back down the tunnel to see if Smaug was gone, Bilbo said:

"'While there's life there's hope!' as my father used to say, and 'Third time pays for all!'"

The 'and' indicates the 'Third time' bit was another of Bungo's sayings. Might Gandalf not have been merely using a little phrase he picked up among those charming and absurd Hobbits, having no particular meaning behind it?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Inzil

Might Gandalf not have been merely using a little phrase he picked up among those charming and absurd Hobbits, having no particular meaning behind it?

I suspect that this may well be the answer. 'Third time pays for all' is a proverbial saying, apparently dating from the 16th century. And we know how much Hobbits love their proverbs, saws and sayings! As I recall, Sam also refers to the phrase at some point, as one of the many that his old Gaffer used to say (perhaps that's where Bungo picked it up from).

Its meaning is seemingly similar to the phrases 'third time lucky' and 'third time's a charm', involving the concept that a third attempt is somehow likely to be more successful than previous attempts (possibly related to the idea of three as a lucky number). The 'pays for all' part, it seems, is intended to convey the idea that this third successful attempt will make up for the disappointment of earlier unsuccessful attempts.

How this relates to Gandalf's words to Gwaihir, I am not sure. Obviously, his earlier journies on the Great Eagle's back were not failures. His use of the phrase, though, suggests to me that he merely intended this to be the final of his journies with the Eagle. In other words, another way of saying 'This will be the last time I burden you, old friend'.

As for the possible contradiction between Gandalf's words and the number of times he may have been borne by Gwaihir, this may simply have been Gandalf misremembering, but I would think the most likely explanation is that Gwaihir (whether King or not) is not the same Eagle as the King of the Eagles that bore him in The Hobbit.