Thrice shall pay for... what?

[Pitchwife]

From LotR Book VI, The Field of Cormallen, it seems to me that Gwaihir's brother Landroval, rather than Gwaihir himself, was the King of Eagles mentioned in The Hobbit:

There came Gwaihir the Windlord, and Landroval his brother, greatest of all the Eagles of the North, mightiest of the descendants of old Thorondor

If the rules for Eagle royalty were similar to those observed among earthbound bipeds, it would make sense for the King not to go venturing forth far and wide from his own realm that often (unless he was leading his host to war, as in the Battle of the Five Armies and the Battle of the Morannon), whereas Gwaihir, as the King's (presumably) younger brother, would have had more freedom to deal actively with matters of foreign policy (such as rescuing allied Wizards from towers or mountain tops). He may even have been acting as the King's emissary, paying Gandalf for a service not given to himself but his brother, when Landroval's other royal obligations kept him from coming to Gandalf's aid in person.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

From LotR Book VI, The Field of Cormallen, it seems to me that Gwaihir's brother Landroval, rather than Gwaihir himself, was the King of Eagles mentioned in The Hobbit:

That could be the case, but I don't think the quote you cite is conclusive. It could also be read that Landroval and Gwaihir were the 'greatest of all the Eagles of the North'.
Nevertheless, you're probably right about Gwaihir not being the 'king' of the Eagles. Whenever he's mentioned, it always seems to be in the terms of his being the 'swiftest', or having 'far-seeing eyes', and you'd think if he was the ruler of the Eagles that fact would be somewhere noted.

[Raynor]

Nevertheless, you're probably right about Gwaihir not being the 'king' of the Eagles. Whenever he's mentioned, it always seems to be in the terms of his being the 'swiftest', or having 'far-seeing eyes', and you'd think if he was the ruler of the Eagles that fact would be somewhere noted.

Well the eagles are names as vassals of Gwaihir and Landroval, however only Gwaihir bears the name "the Windlord"; considering the nature of this race, this title should establish his prominence among all the other eagles - I am not quite sure we can imagine another title surpassing it in significance.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Well the eagles are names as vassals of Gwaihir and Landroval, however only Gwaihir bears the name "the Windlord"; considering the nature of this race, this title should establish his prominence among all the other eagles - I am not quite sure we can imagine another title surpassing it in significance.

Now you mention it, it strikes me that "Windlord" is almost a paraphrase of Manwe's own title - Lord of the Breath of Arda. That certainly does suggest he was an Eagle of exceptionally lofty rank. Landroval's name, in comparison, merely means something like "Broad Wing", if I remember my Sindarin right - indicative of stature but not status. Good point.
But if we assume Gwaihir was the King of Eagles from TH, something seems wrong with Gandalf's mathematics, as Ibrin pointed out at the start. Don't pretend Wizards can't count!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Well the eagles are names as vassals of Gwaihir and Landroval, however only Gwaihir bears the name "the Windlord"; considering the nature of this race, this title should establish his prominence among all the other eagles - I am not quite sure we can imagine another title surpassing it in significance.

Then again, Windlord could have been simply another reference to his exceptional speed and flying ability. As I said though, there's certainly room for question there.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

It's even possible that Gwaihir is the current king of the Eagles, since quite a few years have passed since TH, and his predecessor might well have died, from age or illness or an orc arrow (though why the Eagle king should be running errands to Orthanc for Radagast is another thing that makes me think he isn't). Which still makes me wonder: what debt does Gwaihir owe to Gandalf, that thrice should pay for all? It's an untold story, as far as I can tell, and my digging through the HoME books hasn't provided any greater illumination yet.

*sigh*

[Boromir88]

It could just be a literary red-herring (hmm...is that a term? ) used by Tolkien to justify the Eagles insertion into the story. Tolkien calls the Eagles "dangerous machines" that have to be used sparingly, because they are servants of Manwe, and having the Eagles constantly get Gandalf out of tough situations is cheap writing.

Maybe Tolkien just wrote an unexplained "debt" Gwaihir owed Gandalf, to somehow justify Gwaihir's timely appearances and rescues?

[Inziladun]

Another possibility came to mind, prompted by something I remembered Bilbo saying in The Hobbit.

The quote from ROTK that began this thread runs thus:

'Twice you have borne me, Gwaihir my friend,' said Gandalf. 'Thrice shall pay for all, if you're willing.'

When telling the Dwarves he was willing to go back down the tunnel to see if Smaug was gone, Bilbo said:

"'While there's life there's hope!' as my father used to say, and 'Third time pays for all!'"

The 'and' indicates the 'Third time' bit was another of Bungo's sayings. Might Gandalf not have been merely using a little phrase he picked up among those charming and absurd Hobbits, having no particular meaning behind it?