The Capital of Cardolan

[Rumil]

Hi all,

I guess I'd better explain my rather obscure comment

The parachuting hippo was in a picture in one edition of the MERP rulebook, merrily floating down over a serene pastoral scene, small but quite distinct (somewhere amongst the innumerable tables if I remember). It always made me chuckle and I've never heard why or how it got there.

Meanwhile back at Cardolan,

Amon Sul was where one of the Palantirs was kept was it not? Pretty much near the junction of all three kingdoms, and a major object of the military campaigns. (Quite why it couldn't be moved I don't know, perhaps a pride thing?)

Not sure if I remember this correctly, but wasn't Tharbad on the border between Gondorian and Arnorian land? I'm sure someone will put me right.

Another candidate for Cardolanian capital could be the settlement in the Angle where the Rangers had their main base in Aragorn's day, maybe.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Amon Sul was where one of the Palantirs was kept was it not? Pretty much near the junction of all three kingdoms, and a major object of the military campaigns. (Quite why it couldn't be moved I don't know, perhaps a pride thing?)

.......

Another candidate for Cardolanian capital could be the settlement in the Angle where the Rangers had their main base in Aragorn's day, maybe.

Regarding Amon Sûl, I'm not entirely clear where the idea that this lay within the borders of Cardolan comes from. The borders of the three kingdoms are enumerated so:

Originally Posted by Appendix A (iii)

Arthedain was in the North-west and included the land between Brandywine and Lune, and also the land north of the Great Road as far as the Weather Hills. Rhudaur was in the North-east and lay between the Ettenmoors , the Weather Hills, and the Misty Mountains, but also included the Angle between Hoarwell and Loudwater. Cardolan was in the South, its bounds being the Brandywine, the Greyflood, and the Great Road

--emphases mine

Quite apart from clearly eliminating the possibility of a Cardolanic capital in the Angle, it doesn't quite tell us which kingdom held Amon Sûl. It does, however, leave Cardolan with the weakest claim of the three--since Amon Sûl is one of the Weather Hills, north of the Great Road.

Granted, however, it is the final Weather Hill, and so lies just north of the Great Road. But it is north, and so technically outside the bounds of Cardolan, as enumerated here. However, it does bear mentioning the following:

Originally Posted by Appendix A (iii)

There was often strife between the kingdoms, which hastened the waning of the Dúnedain. The chief matter of debate was the possession of the Weather Hills and the land westwards towards Bree. Both Rhudaur and Cardolan desired to possess Amon Sûl (Weathertop), which stood on the borders of their realms: for th Tower of Amon Sûl held the chief Palantír of the North, and the other two were both in the keeping of Arthedain.

My reading of this passage is that Cardolan, like Rhudaur, did not possess Amon Sûl, but--again, like Rhudaur--wanted possession of the Weather Hills and east-of-Bree Arthedain for control of the hill and the Palantír. I'll admit the passage leaves open the possibility that either of the cadet branches of the North-kingdom may have, during the "strife" occasionally taken over that realm, but it does not seem to me that it was theirs to begin with.

Certainly, in such a contested and non-originally Cardolanic area, it seems clear that the Kings of Cardolan would not have had their capital in its immediate vicinity.

Not sure if I remember this correctly, but wasn't Tharbad on the border between Gondorian and Arnorian land? I'm sure someone will put me right.

The record isn't straight on that matter...

Without digging up quotes at the moment, I think there are two statements that contradict each other. I think they might both be in Unfinished Tales. Anyway, whatever the sources are, I'm confident that I am quoting them accurately to say that the following captures the situation accurately:

In one place Tolkien says that Minihiriath--the lands between Isen and Gwathló--were a no-man's land between Arnor and Gondor. In this case, the old Númenorean stronghold of Tharbad, on the border between Arnor and the no-man's land, would clearly have been within the realm of the North-kings, and thus inherited by Cardolan in the division of the realms.

On the other hand, Tolkien also says somewhere that Gondor ruled westwards (I think this was a reference in relation to the furthest extent of Gondor's power), to Tharbad and Gwathló, where it met Arnor. In this case, it is not clear that Tharbad was a part of Arnor/Cardolan, but even so, at no point was Minihiriath ever much populated by Dúnedain, other than at Tharbad, and much earlier at Lond Daer at the mouth of the Gwathló, and it does not seem that Gondor would have exercised much more than a nominal claim over Minihiriath, which would still leave Arnor/Cardolan with the greater claim on the city.

It is said, in seeming contradiction to both statements, in Appendix A (iii) that:

Originally Posted by Appendix A (iii)

In the days of Argeleb II the plague came into Eriador from the South-east, and most of the poeple of Cardolan perished, especially in Minihiriath

--emphasis mine

In contrast to both the previous-mentioned traditions--again, I think I'm remembered Unfinished Tales--Appendix A seems to suggest that Minihiriath, at least in the late days of Cardolan's independence, was a part of the northern realms.

Looking at a map, however, it possible to reconcile these opposing claims to an extent, by suggesting that de facto Minihiriath was a no-man's land between the Númenorean realms-in-exile. Tharbad, on the edge of the region, seems clearly to have belonged to Cardolan (and I think is a good contender for capital, save that it's so far removed from all the action and population in the north), and inland Minihiriath, near Tharbad and about the Greenway, would undoubtedly have acknowledged the Northern king, whether of Arnor or of Cardolan. The apparently contradictory claim of Gondor to Minihiriath may, perhaps, be just a mere claim, or--I prefer this--refers mostly to the coastline. Apart from the army sent, late, to the succour of Arvedui, Gondor never seems to have had much interest in advancing northwest--but it did have an incredibly strong naval tradition. Gondor exercising its muscle along the unpopulated coastlands and extending this title inland--where people under an internationally renowned Cardolan actually acknowledged northern rule--seems eminently plausible.

A final note: according to the Tale of the Years (Appendix B), Tharbad was not finally abandoned until the Fell Winter of 2911-2, when Bilbo Baggins was 21, so several centuries after Calenardhion had passed from Gondor to Rohan, and thus cutting it off--substantially--from Gondor, which seems to have had no contact with the North, post-Eärnur. Though, of course, Tharbad need not have been a city or town explicitly associated with either kingdom, and might by this point have been an essentially non-Númenorean independent town, it definitely seems to fall clearly within the purview of the Dúnedain of the North, rather than the South, and I would take its survival to this late day as a sign that it had always been considered part of the North Kingdom.

[Rumil]

Excellent Formendacil,

you nicely eliminated Amon Sul and the Angle, leaving Tharbad as only known candidate (unless there was some abandoned city hanging around somewhere).

As I'm too dozy to even remember the Angle was in Rhudaur , I'm off to bed,

Cheers!

[CSteefel]

On the topic of the ownership of Weathertop (or Amon Sul), Appendix A says:

Both Rhudaur and Cardolan desired to possess Amon Sul (Weathertop), which stood on the borders of their realms...

and then

Arthedain and Cardolan held in force a frontier along the Weather Hills, the Great Road and the lower Hoarwell

so the suggestion seems to be that at one point Cardolan and Arthedain held this area. And then

A great host came out of Angmar in 1409, and crossing the river entered Cardolan and surrounded Weathertop.

Now it could be that these were simultaneous activities (not related), but one could read this as indicating that Weathertop was part of Cardolan at this point in time.

Shortly thereafter,

Cardolan was ravaged...A remnant of the the faithful among the dunedain of Cardolan also held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns), or took refuge in the Forest behind.

so I agree there is no clear statement here that a city was involved at the site of Tyrn Gorthad.

I guess what had me thinking that a city was close by was the statement by Bombadil when he found the brooch set with blue stones

"Here is a pretty toy for Tom and for his lady! Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder..."

which suggests to me that Bombadil knew the princess in question. If this was just a group of warriors on the Barrowdowns, then I don't see a princess being there. Of course, it could be that Bombadil somehow knew this princess by other means, but the fact that he knew her suggested that the royal palace might be nearby. Perhaps even more circumstantial is the statement in the Tale of Years

1409 The Witch King of Angmar invades Arnor. King Arvaleg I is slain. Fornost and Tyrn Gorthad are defended,

which suggests to me that Fornost and Tyrn Gorthad are more or less equivalent (i.e., capitals of their respective kingdoms)...

[Rhugga II]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

which suggests to me that Fornost and Tyrn Gorthad are more or less equivalent (i.e., capitals of their respective kingdoms)...

The quote you mentioned seems to be the primary argument for the region as the capital. However, it may have just been a more defensible area than the capital. It was a refuge in later days and I can't help wondering if the Cardolanians, in dire straits, fell back to these foggy, extensive downs to fight a successful guerrilla war in 1409.

Those parachuting hippo people seemed to concur with Formendacil that the capital is located between Tharbad and Tyrn Gorthad, near the South Downs. They names this location Thalion and saw it situated near a town called Metraith.

As for the Angle, I always pictured it in Rhudaur. This is probably based on my recollection of the Maps in Karen Wynn Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle Earth and J.E.A. Tyler's The Tolkien Companion.