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[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Also, what did Rivendell look like? I suppose it was a well-manned stronghold, capable of withstanding an assault from a strong army, because it it wasn't, Sauron would no doubt have over-thrown it long ago. Sauron would have known more or less were Rivendell lay, wouldn't he? Since it's located in a deep valley, it seems like a siege should be fairly easy to stage, no?

I guess that's just the point. Gandalf himself in the Hobbit, and he must have been there many, many times, wasn't sure about the location of the valley itself and had to look around all the time - as Mith has already mentioned. I believe Mnemo's idea of "lesser Girdle of Melian" is also quite plausible and fits my mental image of the kind of defence surrounding Rivendell.

Let us not also forget that by the time of establishing, Rivendell was actually surrounded by Sauron's forces, but not defeated. Back then, though, I believe there were far more soldiers there than in the late Third Age. However, it's interesting to note that Rivendell was actually established as a temporary (or so it probably seemed back then) camp of defense against Sauron. (Elrond as a commander of a part of army was basically besieged there, being driven into wilderness, and he probably saw this nice hidden valley which was easy to protect, and so he did. Something along the lines of Helm's Deep.)

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I believe Mnemo's idea of "lesser Girdle of Melian" is also quite plausible and fits my mental image of the kind of defence surrounding Rivendell.

Well, the vale was indeed protected by a Ring of Power, so certainly a 'girdle' meant to confuse and hinder enemies makes sense. Galadriel as well protected Lothlorien in the same manner, confounding Sauron's attempts to discover the movements and thoughts of the Wise.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Well, the vale was indeed protected by a Ring of Power, so certainly a 'girdle' meant to confuse and hinder enemies makes sense. Galadriel as well protected Lothlorien in the same manner, confounding Sauron's attempts to discover the movements and thoughts of the Wise.

It's fairly clear to me Vilya was the primary protection of Rivendell. I wonder though, just how its influence (and Nenya's also) kept out unwelcome intruders.
Was it something along the lines of only those dwelling there with the wielder of the Ring being able to penetrate the barrier (and bring outsiders with them) under ordinary circumstances, and 'exceptions', such as Bilbo, Boromir, Legolas, Glóin and Gimli having to have special conscious permission of the Ring's master to enter?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It's fairly clear to me Vilya was the primary protection of Rivendell. I wonder though, just how its influence (and Nenya's also) kept out unwelcome intruders.

I think Vilya had an influence (and was the reason the stars were clearest there) but I still think Geography was the primary protection since Elrond founded Rivendell long before he had the Ring of Power. Also Rivendell was designed as a refuge in the way the Lorien was not.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I think Vilya had an influence (and was the reason the stars were clearest there) but I still think Geography was the primary protection since Elrond founded Rivendell long before he had the Ring of Power. Also Rivendell was designed as a refuge in the way the Lorien was not.

Well, the area's geography was what convinced Elrond to choose that valley as the location for his refuge, but that alone wouldn't have been a total defence. It was Vilya that seems to have provided the power ultimately to keep out enemies.
For example, Saruman almost certainly would have been to Rivendell, and could have told someone how to find it. If not the power of Vilya, what was to stop a spy from being on the ground in the area watching the Company leave?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

what was to stop a spy from being on the ground in the area watching the Company leave?

An Elf? Maybe even eagles or other birds friendly to Elrond. I assume the valley was closely guarded. Obviously the surrounding area was scouted carefully ahead of the company's departure too.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, the area's geography was what convinced Elrond to choose that valley as the location for his refuge, but that alone wouldn't have been a total defence. It was Vilya that seems to have provided the power ultimately to keep out enemies.
For example, Saruman almost certainly would have been to Rivendell, and could have told someone how to find it. If not the power of Vilya

I'm not completely convinced that the Elven Rings' had the power to defend Rivendell and Lothlórien, similar to how Melian Girdled the Hidden Kingdom. Is there anything written that suggests this is the case? As I understand it, the power of the rings were mainly in preserving, as they could put the abode of the wielder in a stasis, shielded from the corrosive influence of time, and the ageing of the world. If they could be used to keep unwanted visitors out, it is something I never read (or forgot that I read).

For one thing, Orcs were able to enter into Lothlórien unhindered, crossing the stream of Nimrodel, though they never returned. Several attacks were repealed during the war of the ring, and one thinks that that fighting wouldn't be necessary if the ring offered full protection. Caras Caladhon, the city of the Galadhrim, was also a fortified stronghold with high walls and surrounding moats, which indicates that more conventional fighting could be expected.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I'm not completely convinced that the Elven Rings' had the power to defend Rivendell and Lothlórien, similar to how Melian Girdled the Hidden Kingdom. Is there anything written that suggests this is the case? As I understand it, the power of the rings were mainly in preserving, as they could put the abode of the wielder in a stasis, shielded from the corrosive influence of time, and the ageing of the world. If they could be used to keep unwanted visitors out, it is something I never read (or forgot that I read).

For one thing, Orcs were able to enter into Lothlórien unhindered, crossing the stream of Nimrodel, though they never returned. Several attacks were repealed during the war of the ring, and one thinks that that fighting wouldn't be necessary if the ring offered full protection. Caras Caladhon, the city of the Galadhrim, was also a fortified stronghold with high walls and surrounding moats, which indicates that more conventional fighting could be expected.

Rivendell: the somewhat unexpected flood which destroyed the Black Riders might be one example of where the Ring's power, as I believe, was used. Though who knows - the text sounds almost as if the spell was there permanently, more like a "trap" ready to set off, and now the question is only whether it was made by the Ring's power or by some other power. (Personally I have always thought it was the Ring, but I have heard also other opinions.)

Originally Posted by FotR, Many Meetings

"Who made the flood?" asked Frodo.
"Elrond commanded it," answered Gandalf. "The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the water the flood was released."

And as for Lothlórien, Galadriel, after she revealed her Ring to Frodo, said:

Originally Posted by FotR, Mirror of Galadriel

But do not think that only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlórien maintained and defended against its Enemy.

So as if you had just asked for it yourself, skip For that matter, there were unusual things at work around Lórien anyway, reported elsewhere, like the strange mist that came out of Lórien when Eorl and his riders were coming south, and it protected them from being spotted by Dol Guldur (see Unfinished Tales).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

An Elf? Maybe even eagles or other birds friendly to Elrond. I assume the valley was closely guarded. Obviously the surrounding area was scouted carefully ahead of the company's departure too.

Elves make good guards, and Eagles make good scouts, but I find it hard to believe either would be capable of completely safeguarding the Last Homely House. I'm not saying Vilya was the only protection Rivendell had, but I think it was what gave Elrond the ability to bring the flood at least.

'The river of this valley is under [Elrond's] power, and will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford.'

FOTR Many Meetings

How would Elrond possess such power alone? Though great among the Eldar remaining in ME at that time, and surely one of the wisest of them, he had never lived in the Blessed Realm, and lacked the 'Old World' strength of people like Finrod Felagund or Círdan. It could be argued that his Maia blood might have been a factor, but then, I wonder why we don't see evidence of any 'supernatural' powers from him before he took possession of the Ring. Sauron would have wiped him out in the Second Age if not for the Dwarves of Moria.