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[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Well, the vale was indeed protected by a Ring of Power, so certainly a 'girdle' meant to confuse and hinder enemies makes sense. Galadriel as well protected Lothlorien in the same manner, confounding Sauron's attempts to discover the movements and thoughts of the Wise.

It's fairly clear to me Vilya was the primary protection of Rivendell. I wonder though, just how its influence (and Nenya's also) kept out unwelcome intruders.
Was it something along the lines of only those dwelling there with the wielder of the Ring being able to penetrate the barrier (and bring outsiders with them) under ordinary circumstances, and 'exceptions', such as Bilbo, Boromir, Legolas, Glóin and Gimli having to have special conscious permission of the Ring's master to enter?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It's fairly clear to me Vilya was the primary protection of Rivendell. I wonder though, just how its influence (and Nenya's also) kept out unwelcome intruders.

I think Vilya had an influence (and was the reason the stars were clearest there) but I still think Geography was the primary protection since Elrond founded Rivendell long before he had the Ring of Power. Also Rivendell was designed as a refuge in the way the Lorien was not.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I think Vilya had an influence (and was the reason the stars were clearest there) but I still think Geography was the primary protection since Elrond founded Rivendell long before he had the Ring of Power. Also Rivendell was designed as a refuge in the way the Lorien was not.

Well, the area's geography was what convinced Elrond to choose that valley as the location for his refuge, but that alone wouldn't have been a total defence. It was Vilya that seems to have provided the power ultimately to keep out enemies.
For example, Saruman almost certainly would have been to Rivendell, and could have told someone how to find it. If not the power of Vilya, what was to stop a spy from being on the ground in the area watching the Company leave?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

what was to stop a spy from being on the ground in the area watching the Company leave?

An Elf? Maybe even eagles or other birds friendly to Elrond. I assume the valley was closely guarded. Obviously the surrounding area was scouted carefully ahead of the company's departure too.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, the area's geography was what convinced Elrond to choose that valley as the location for his refuge, but that alone wouldn't have been a total defence. It was Vilya that seems to have provided the power ultimately to keep out enemies.
For example, Saruman almost certainly would have been to Rivendell, and could have told someone how to find it. If not the power of Vilya

I'm not completely convinced that the Elven Rings' had the power to defend Rivendell and Lothlórien, similar to how Melian Girdled the Hidden Kingdom. Is there anything written that suggests this is the case? As I understand it, the power of the rings were mainly in preserving, as they could put the abode of the wielder in a stasis, shielded from the corrosive influence of time, and the ageing of the world. If they could be used to keep unwanted visitors out, it is something I never read (or forgot that I read).

For one thing, Orcs were able to enter into Lothlórien unhindered, crossing the stream of Nimrodel, though they never returned. Several attacks were repealed during the war of the ring, and one thinks that that fighting wouldn't be necessary if the ring offered full protection. Caras Caladhon, the city of the Galadhrim, was also a fortified stronghold with high walls and surrounding moats, which indicates that more conventional fighting could be expected.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I'm not completely convinced that the Elven Rings' had the power to defend Rivendell and Lothlórien, similar to how Melian Girdled the Hidden Kingdom. Is there anything written that suggests this is the case? As I understand it, the power of the rings were mainly in preserving, as they could put the abode of the wielder in a stasis, shielded from the corrosive influence of time, and the ageing of the world. If they could be used to keep unwanted visitors out, it is something I never read (or forgot that I read).

For one thing, Orcs were able to enter into Lothlórien unhindered, crossing the stream of Nimrodel, though they never returned. Several attacks were repealed during the war of the ring, and one thinks that that fighting wouldn't be necessary if the ring offered full protection. Caras Caladhon, the city of the Galadhrim, was also a fortified stronghold with high walls and surrounding moats, which indicates that more conventional fighting could be expected.

Rivendell: the somewhat unexpected flood which destroyed the Black Riders might be one example of where the Ring's power, as I believe, was used. Though who knows - the text sounds almost as if the spell was there permanently, more like a "trap" ready to set off, and now the question is only whether it was made by the Ring's power or by some other power. (Personally I have always thought it was the Ring, but I have heard also other opinions.)

Originally Posted by FotR, Many Meetings

"Who made the flood?" asked Frodo.
"Elrond commanded it," answered Gandalf. "The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the water the flood was released."

And as for Lothlórien, Galadriel, after she revealed her Ring to Frodo, said:

Originally Posted by FotR, Mirror of Galadriel

But do not think that only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlórien maintained and defended against its Enemy.

So as if you had just asked for it yourself, skip For that matter, there were unusual things at work around Lórien anyway, reported elsewhere, like the strange mist that came out of Lórien when Eorl and his riders were coming south, and it protected them from being spotted by Dol Guldur (see Unfinished Tales).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

An Elf? Maybe even eagles or other birds friendly to Elrond. I assume the valley was closely guarded. Obviously the surrounding area was scouted carefully ahead of the company's departure too.

Elves make good guards, and Eagles make good scouts, but I find it hard to believe either would be capable of completely safeguarding the Last Homely House. I'm not saying Vilya was the only protection Rivendell had, but I think it was what gave Elrond the ability to bring the flood at least.

'The river of this valley is under [Elrond's] power, and will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford.'

FOTR Many Meetings

How would Elrond possess such power alone? Though great among the Eldar remaining in ME at that time, and surely one of the wisest of them, he had never lived in the Blessed Realm, and lacked the 'Old World' strength of people like Finrod Felagund or Círdan. It could be argued that his Maia blood might have been a factor, but then, I wonder why we don't see evidence of any 'supernatural' powers from him before he took possession of the Ring. Sauron would have wiped him out in the Second Age if not for the Dwarves of Moria.

[skip spence]

Yeah, maybe it's time for me to re-read FotR, eh Legate?

Considering what you've said I agree that the two rings had something to do with defending the respective realms. If have time I might return with some additional thoughts on the subject.

[alatar]

Thank you all for your wonderful posts! I hadn't expected/predicted that this is where the thread would have gone. That said...

- I'm currently researching Rivendell more to put some weight to the inference that visitors stopped by.

- How long could an unrelated Elf stay, and if so would he/she have to 'kick in' some help?

- When the hobbits reach Bree, Sam suggests that instead of the Prancing Pony that they find lodging amongst some local hobbit families. How would this arrangement work (though the accommodations be somewhat less than those found at the Last Homely House) ?