Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by alatar

I still think that George Lucas is somewhere hiding in the shadows behind all of this...

A least PJ didn't show Gandalf's staff turning into a lightsaber, then G. slicing the WK's head off. He probably thought of it, though.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

A least PJ didn't show Gandalf's staff turning into a lightsaber, then G. slicing the WK's head off. He probably thought of it, though.

What made me think of Lucas was just reading a snarky review of RotS III, and also seeing it on TV last night. And Lucas, not producing a movie from a book source like Jackson, did not make his universe consistent/continuous with his earlier works, which many have noted. Did Jackson think that readers of Tolkien would be less forgiving?

Gandalf, even though he ended up losing the exchange, faced the Balrog on his feet. In TTT he foolishly leaps down a hill atop Shadowfax onto a group of Uruks holding shiny pieces of metal and wood pointed his way. In RotK Gandalf uses his wizardly flashlight to drive the Nazgul from the air, and he rallies the troops to the defense of Minas Tirith from the three battle trolls that come a'knocking.

And *then* he lies down on the job when the Witch King appears?

Why, even a Ranger that can be taken by surprise by a Elf could put up a better defense with a fiery piece of wood...

[aelrliecn]

The title says it all.

The Witch King of Angmar, as powerful as he is, is only an undead man. Gandalf, or Olorin, is an Ainur. He existed before the world existed. There is no doubt who would be the victor.

However, all that being said... There is a textual precedent for a being who is far more powerful acting fearful of a lesser being whom he could (and did) squash like a rat: Morgoth vs. Fingolfin. If you recall, at first, Morgoth cowered in Utumno in fear of Fingolfin's wrath. But then of course he came forth, got sliced in the achilles, screamed in pain, then promptly dispatched Fingolfin.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by aelrliecn

The title says it all.

The Witch King of Angmar, as powerful as he is, is only an undead man. Gandalf, or Olorin, is an Ainur. He existed before the world existed. There is no doubt who would be the victor.

However, all that being said... There is a textual precedent for a being who is far more powerful acting fearful of a lesser being whom he could (and did) squash like a rat: Morgoth vs. Fingolfin. If you recall, at first, Morgoth cowered in Utumno in fear of Fingolfin's wrath. But then of course he came forth, got sliced in the achilles, screamed in pain, then promptly dispatched Fingolfin.

Well said, aelrliecn, and Welcome to the Downs!

Even if Gandalf was powering down and the Witch-King buying boots thrice his former size, I still think that PJ did those of us Gandalf fans a disservice by not putting at least a blank expression on the prone Gandalf's face. Even if he were afraid, we know that he would at least go down swinging.

[Todorius]

Hi,
I am new to this forum and have read this topic with great interest.
I have to say that I also feel so disturbed by the scene Gandalf vs Witchking eversince I have seen it the first time 5 years ago. Honestly, I wanted to punch the monitor when I saw it. To me, this scene represents an outrageous break with the spirit of Tolkien. It is clear that Peter Jackson or his crew have not understood the meaning of the figure of Gandalf in any way. For me, they did an excellent job on the first movie, a good job on the second one, and even the beginning of the third one was good. Then everything falls apart and drifts towards cinematic nonsense.
Well, that's why I decided to do an edit of the scene Gandalf vs Witchking 3 years ago, I did my best, still it could be much better if someone had the necessary tools:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoFRnsYdP2Y

also, I enhanced Gandalfs power in to other scenes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REdVUTEs57M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KiN-4thC6U

Maybe you like it.
I know it will not fully restore the dignity of Gandalf the white, but at least it is a try towards that direction. It could be done much better.

[Pitchwife]

Welcome to the Downs, Todorius, hope you'll enjoy being dead!
Good jobs on those edits - yep, that's much more like the Gandalf we know and love. I especially liked the part where he makes the broken gate close again, before Grond breaks through the second time, reminiscent of the shutting-spell he used in Moria (Chamber of Mazarbûl).
(A little bit of nitpicking, if you don't mind: the spell Gandalf tried at the west gate of Moria - "elvish gate, open for us" - isn't really appropriate here, as the gate wasn't elvish and he wanted it to stay closed, not open; but I realize you had to use something, and as long as one doesn't know what the words mean (most movie-goers probably didn't) it works nicely.)

[Todorius]

Thanks a lot.
I really hope that someday in the future, someone will come along and do an even better edit, with better effects. There is still a lot of room for improvements.

Yeah, you are right with the spell, I took it from FOTR where Gandalf tries to open the gate of Moria. It matched so well to the lip movement at the gate scene, and sounded like an impressive spell in that context.

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by aelrliecn

The Witch King of Angmar, as powerful as he is, is only an undead man. Gandalf, or Olorin, is an Ainur. He existed before the world existed. There is no doubt who would be the victor.

Well... The Ainur came in varying degrees of greatness, and so did balrogs. "Mere" elves killed balrogs, who were Ainur, and Tuor, a man, killed five of them during the fall of Gondolin. Of course, these balrogs were much weaker than the great Balrog of Khazad-dum. I think in a pitched battle Gandalf would have beaten the Witch King, but that doesn't mean that the Witch King did not have resources. This guy was thousands of years old. He was a great king of old with lots of experience and wizardry at his command. He was imbued with unknown powers from Sauron as well. He was no longer a "mere man."

But even with that, I generally agree with you all. After all, Aragorn had quite handily beaten the Witch King and a few of his buddies up on Weathertop (which although it's in the text is, in a way, more puzzling to me than his great power later on in the film). So I don't understand either why Gandalf seemed to be so cowed by this guy. Perhaps the Witch King had some sort of spirit-killer at work especially effective against Maia, kind of like kryptonite against Superman. Or perhaps after all, in his new incarnation, Sauron was indeed able to imbue him with some part of his own strength, so that in a sense Gandalf was not facing merely the Witch King at that moment but Sauron himself.

But if that's not true, then I can't explain it either. Guess it's one of those unfortunate flaws in the movie. Hey, it could've been worse: originally Jackson was going to have Sauron take physical form and fight Aragorn at the gates of Mordor! (*shudder*)

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

Aragorn had quite handily beaten the Witch King and a few of his buddies up on Weathertop

And didn't Gandalf himself hold them off on Weathertop too?

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

And didn't Gandalf himself hold them off on Weathertop too?

Yeah, but the Witch King didn't have that wicked flying dinosaur mount at the time. Maybe it was that animal's breath that broke the staff and nearly made Gandalf pass out.

[JoltFlame]

I believe the Lord of the Nazgûl equals Gandalf in strengh and stature.