Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

Someone earlier referenced the how Tolkien earlier handled lines of power
with respect to beings. This also applies to places, objects, artifacts and it's own internal mythology.

Melkor --> Sauron (Maiar)-->
3 Rings for elven kings under the sky
7 for dwarf lords in their halls of stone
9 for mortal men doomed to die

While a lot of power was placed in those rings , none are enough to take on Gandalf.

Gandalf is a Maiar (see Sauron if we are tracking lines of power)

Sauron has more power than Gandalf only due to a more straight line to his master Melkor.

The Witchking is really a mere pawn
It would take all 9 nazgul to fight Gandalf The White (or Grey) and they would lose.

The whole scene was bad. That Staff is not getting shattered any day soon
and only by Sauron himself.

Several related weaker good guys beating stronger bad guys. With respect to the Hobbits,
their skills are underestimated and each time they are carrying artifacts that aid them in defeating the "stronger" bad guy.

Example...Shelob...Sting and the Phial of Galadriel

[Eönwë]

By the way this is the opinion I gave in the other thread.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

The Witch-king could never even get near beating Gandalf. Olorin (Gandalf) was a Maiar and the witch-king was a human (though I do think he was a "black numenorean" so he might have had some Maiar blood in him after all, but Gandalf is fully Maiar). A human, however powerful, could never kill, or even win a fight against a Maiar. And Olorin was chosen to help the peoples of middle earth, in the same that Eonwe was (not being as strong as the target but still being comparatively strong to them). Gandalf killed a Balrog, a Maiar, a being of divine descent, to get beaten by a man? The Balrog, by the way, was not even a servant of Sauron, but of Morgoth, not much weaker than Sauron, in fact. Gandalf was sent by Manwe, and even though he refused at first, Gandalf went for a reason (varda makes a sneaky comment that hints that he is stronger than Saruman (curumo in Valinor). Gandalf is an immortal, and could not properly be killed anyway. Also, the witch-king has neither the authority nor the power to break Gandalf's staff as he did during the movie.

PS. Morgoth is the lord of all the evil, the old master of Sauron
PPS. This time (with Gandalf) the target is Sauron (the target was Morgoth with Eonwe).
PPPS. Eonwe is actually Eönwë, Olorin is actually Olórin, Numenorean is actually Númenórean and Manwe is actually Manwë, if you want all the accents correctly placed

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Ken_wilsonii

Several related weaker good guys beating stronger bad guys. With respect to the Hobbits,
their skills are underestimated and each time they are carrying artifacts that aid them in defeating the "stronger" bad guy.

Example...Shelob...Sting and the Phial of Galadriel

Yes but that was sam and he is special (look at this)Also, he is actually a good fighter (or at least among hoobbits)< which they don't fully appreciate in the movies. I think Sam is underdone in the movies.

Hmmm... maybe I'll start a thread

you see, my friend and i were arguing about who would win in a battle: the WK or Gandalf. and i looked it up and found this thread and decided to join this forum, and i'm an avid lotr reader and of course i absolutely loved the movies.

but that scene really made no sense to me, knowing that gandalf was a mair and got his power from the valor itself. i mean come on he came back from the dead like jesus after kicking some *** and came back and kicked some more.

and the witch king got his power from a already very weak sauron, so gandalf obviously wins.

i dont know how anyone could put up a decent argument on the WK's side.

[Groin Redbeard]

There's no question about it. The Witch King was a Wraith while Gandalf was a Miar. The nobody can kill a Mair unless you are a Mair yourself; or Valar.

Peter Jackson, I must admit, did a poor job at that scene. It would have been better if he would have stuck to the book with that sequence.

[Lord Gothmog]

While I agree with the view that Jackson 'got it wrong' and the Witch-King most certainly could not have broken the staff of Gandalf, it is not at all certain that Gandalf would have won in a direct confrontation with the Lord of the Nazgul.

It is true that Gandalf was also Olorin the Maia but he was less powerful as Gandalf the Incarnate Istar. Gandalf the White was more powerful than Gandalf the Grey yet still he was Incarnate and Tolkien himself stated:-

Tolkien's Letters: 156 To Robert Murray, SJ. (draft)

By 'incarnate' I mean they were embodied in physical bodies capable of pain, and weariness, and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear, and of being 'killed', though supported by the angelic spirit they might endure long, and only show slowly the wearing of care and labour.

And of The Witch-King vs Gandalf Tolkien has Gandalf saying:-

Return of the King: The Siege of Gondor.

'Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,' said Denethor. 'For myself, I have long known who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all that you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?'
Pippin trembled, fearing that Gandalf would be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. 'It might be so,' Gandalf answered softly. 'But our trial of strength is not yet come.

However, even this does not come anywhere near to the weakness that Jackson's Gandalf quite clearly displayed.

[The Saucepan Man]

Sorry, but could someone please explain to me where in the films it is said that Gandalf was a Maia, or indeed that Maiar even existed?

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Lord Gothmog

While I agree with the view that Jackson 'got it wrong' and the Witch-King most certainly could not have broken the staff of Gandalf, it is not at all certain that Gandalf would have won in a direct confrontation with the Lord of the Nazgul.

It is true that Gandalf was also Olorin the Maia but he was less powerful as Gandalf the Incarnate Istar. Gandalf the White was more powerful than Gandalf the Grey yet still he was Incarnate and Tolkien himself stated:-

Tolkien's Letters: 156 To Robert Murray, SJ. (draft)
By 'incarnate' I mean they were embodied in physical bodies capable of pain, and weariness, and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear, and of being 'killed', though supported by the angelic spirit they might endure long, and only show slowly the wearing of care and labour.


And of The Witch-King vs Gandalf Tolkien has Gandalf saying:-

Return of the King: The Siege of Gondor.
'Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,' said Denethor. 'For myself, I have long known who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all that you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?'
Pippin trembled, fearing that Gandalf would be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. 'It might be so,' Gandalf answered softly. 'But our trial of strength is not yet come.

Well said. This is what I've been saying (or been trying to say!!!) over the past 3 YEARS this thread has been going. when will it ever end........????????!!!!!!!!