"How does one pronounce Tolkien?" - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eönwë · 08-20-2009, 12:18 PM

I just had a thought about the whole "C" vs. "K" in terms of letters used for names. "C", though pronounced exactly the same as "K", has the connotation of being softer, at least to me, maybe because it can be changed into an "s" sound in English. "C" seems softer, smoother, and more elegant. "K" on the other hand seems more raw and powerful, and slightly harsher than "C". So it seems to me that Elvish, for example, should use "C" and Dwarvish, for example, should use "K".

I think that Tolkien thought, the same, because looking through wordlists on Ardalambion, you can see that except in primitive Elvish, which seems a much more to me a much more "raw" language, Elvish languages favour the letter "C" over "K". On the other hand, Khuzdul, Adûnaic, and the Orkish all use "K" instead of "C". As well as this, so does Valarin, which sounds like a very raw and powerful language.

The same goes with the "ch/kh" usage. Again, "ch" looks much more soft than "kh", which definately looks harsher, and we see a similar pattern. Tolkien gives "kh" and "ch" the same value, but I always imagine the "ch" to be a bit softer (going towards "gh", but still much more like "kh"), whereas the "kh" is pronounced harder. The sound "gh" is also related, as the other extreme (to "kh"), which is used in Orkish. "Kh" is used in Adûnaic and Khuzdul, and "ch" is used in Elvish. Valarin uses all three.

Just an idea.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 08-20-2009, 12:45 PM

I second Eönwë. And there is also the thing to it - at least with me I think it was that way - that "c" is used in Latin even in words which could be easily transcribed with "k" (like in "curriculum"), and thus, for an European, I guess (and maybe for others too), it preserves the image of "ancient forgotten culture with its beautiful statues and stuff like that". It has the feeling of the "high and noble" language.

Galin · 08-21-2009, 09:53 AM

Tolkien specifically wrote of Quenya (Letter 144, 1954):

Quote:

'The archaic language of lore is meant to be a kind of 'Elven-latin', and by transcribing it into a spelling closely resembling that of Latin (except that y is only used as a consonant, as y in E. Yes) the similarity to Latin is increased ocularly.'

However Cirith Ungol, for instance, is not Quenya or the 'Elven-latin', and in draft letter 187 (1956) JRRT explained:

Quote:

'It was only in the last stages that (in spite of my son's protests: he still holds that no one will ever pronounce Cirith right, it appears as Kirith in his map, as formerly also in the text) I decided to be 'consistent' and spell Elvish names and words throughout without k. There are no doubt other variations...'

Pitchwife · 08-21-2009, 10:33 AM

Apart from internal consistency of spelling between the Elven languages, Tolkien's decision to use c for k in Sindarin names as well may also have been influenced by the (modern) orthography of Welsh, the language on which Sindarin was modelled.

Holbytlass · 08-21-2009, 09:02 PM

I, too, originally pronounced Cirdain, Celeborn with the soft "c" and since learning the correct pronunciation I prefer the hard "k". As someone had ealier mentioned it gives a toughness to the character.

I have a hard time pronouncing Gandalf properly with the stress on the second syllable along with Sauron-(sow part) much as I find hard saying the girls' name Kayley. I apologize to those with the name and mean no disrespect it just feels like I'm saying Kelly in an exagerrated and uncomfortable way.

I do insist on saying it properly both as a "I'm part of the club"

and as respect to someone's hard work especially when given tips.

Oh and the "Smak".......I Love it!! I'm still laughing about it.

Mithalwen · 08-22-2009, 02:52 AM

*Holby!!! Squeals with delight!*

I am unsuprisingly perhaps inconsistent. I read the books before absorbing the correct punctuation - which is rather a joyless way to start a novel (though I do look at instructions before attempting to assemble flat-packs!). However thanks to repeated listening of the BBC Radio series with its Christopher Tolkien assisted pronunciation. and his own recordings of the Silmarillion, I have relearnt and have no problems now with Celeborn, Feanor, Sauron. However it takes real mental effort to remember to say Kir (like the drink)-dan rather than Sir Dan.

Pitchwife · 08-22-2009, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holbytlass

I have a hard time pronouncing Gandalf properly with the stress on the second syllable

You mean, GandALF? That sounds odd to me...

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 08-23-2009, 10:24 PM

Seeing Eru on a licence plate the other day made me think of this thread.

Ever since I first read about Eru, I've always pronounced it "Oo-Roo". I do not know whether that's how it's really pronounced, but it seemed to work for me and Laurinque. On second thought, when I looked at the spelling again, I read it as "Eh-roo". Does anyone know how it's supposed to be pronounced?

08-20-2009, 12:18 PM	#1
Eönwë Flame Imperishable Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Right here Posts: 3,928	Difference between the letters "C" and "K" I just had a thought about the whole "C" vs. "K" in terms of letters used for names. "C", though pronounced exactly the same as "K", has the connotation of being softer, at least to me, maybe because it can be changed into an "s" sound in English. "C" seems softer, smoother, and more elegant. "K" on the other hand seems more raw and powerful, and slightly harsher than "C". So it seems to me that Elvish, for example, should use "C" and Dwarvish, for example, should use "K". I think that Tolkien thought, the same, because looking through wordlists on Ardalambion, you can see that except in primitive Elvish, which seems a much more to me a much more "raw" language, Elvish languages favour the letter "C" over "K". On the other hand, Khuzdul, Adûnaic, and the Orkish all use "K" instead of "C". As well as this, so does Valarin, which sounds like a very raw and powerful language. The same goes with the "ch/kh" usage. Again, "ch" looks much more soft than "kh", which definately looks harsher, and we see a similar pattern. Tolkien gives "kh" and "ch" the same value, but I always imagine the "ch" to be a bit softer (going towards "gh", but still much more like "kh"), whereas the "kh" is pronounced harder. The sound "gh" is also related, as the other extreme (to "kh"), which is used in Orkish. "Kh" is used in Adûnaic and Khuzdul, and "ch" is used in Elvish. Valarin uses all three. Just an idea. __________________ Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place

08-20-2009, 12:45 PM	#2
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	I second Eönwë. And there is also the thing to it - at least with me I think it was that way - that "c" is used in Latin even in words which could be easily transcribed with "k" (like in "curriculum"), and thus, for an European, I guess (and maybe for others too), it preserves the image of "ancient forgotten culture with its beautiful statues and stuff like that". It has the feeling of the "high and noble" language. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

08-21-2009, 10:33 AM	#4
Pitchwife Wight of the Old Forest Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall Posts: 3,329	Apart from internal consistency of spelling between the Elven languages, Tolkien's decision to use c for k in Sindarin names as well may also have been influenced by the (modern) orthography of Welsh, the language on which Sindarin was modelled. __________________ Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI

08-21-2009, 09:02 PM	#5
Holbytlass Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Party Tree Posts: 1,042	in the minority I, too, originally pronounced Cirdain, Celeborn with the soft "c" and since learning the correct pronunciation I prefer the hard "k". As someone had ealier mentioned it gives a toughness to the character. I have a hard time pronouncing Gandalf properly with the stress on the second syllable along with Sauron-(sow part) much as I find hard saying the girls' name Kayley. I apologize to those with the name and mean no disrespect it just feels like I'm saying Kelly in an exagerrated and uncomfortable way. I do insist on saying it properly both as a "I'm part of the club" and as respect to someone's hard work especially when given tips. Oh and the "Smak".......I Love it!! I'm still laughing about it. __________________ Holby is an actual flesh-and-blood person, right? Not, say a sock-puppet of Nilp’s, by any chance? ~Nerwen, WWCIII

08-23-2009, 10:24 PM	#8
TheGreatElvenWarrior Mighty Quill Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Walking off to look for America Posts: 2,230	Seeing Eru on a licence plate the other day made me think of this thread. Ever since I first read about Eru, I've always pronounced it "Oo-Roo". I do not know whether that's how it's really pronounced, but it seemed to work for me and Laurinque. On second thought, when I looked at the spelling again, I read it as "Eh-roo". Does anyone know how it's supposed to be pronounced? __________________ The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.

08-22-2009, 02:52 AM	#6
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Holby!!! Squeals with delight! I am unsuprisingly perhaps inconsistent. I read the books before absorbing the correct punctuation - which is rather a joyless way to start a novel (though I do look at instructions before attempting to assemble flat-packs!). However thanks to repeated listening of the BBC Radio series with its Christopher Tolkien assisted pronunciation. and his own recordings of the Silmarillion, I have relearnt and have no problems now with Celeborn, Feanor, Sauron. However it takes real mental effort to remember to say Kir (like the drink)-dan rather than Sir Dan.