TIG: LXV - Our fate lies with...them? - Page 5 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Nessa Telrunya · 08-13-2009, 08:12 AM

The thing about innocents, is that their only concern should be to figure out who the baddies are. The wolves and gifteds are the ones who need to play tricks, and for either self preservation or some other motive.

Rikae · 08-13-2009, 08:15 AM

On the contrary, if the innocents can manage to trick the wolves it can be very helpful. I've seen some amazing feats of deception from ordos. I'll let you figure out how yourself, though.

Inziladun · 08-13-2009, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikae

Oh, let's have it out in the open. You referred to tp "walking the walk" on leaving hints. If you believe he is, why on earth would you point it out?

All I meant there was that I'd witnessed him do that himself as a Gifted, and I saw nothing suspicious about him bringing it up.

Hakon · 08-13-2009, 08:22 AM

Rikae, what game did some innocents trick the wolves so well? I kind of unintentionally tricked Boro into making a slip last game when I posted my ranger suspicions involving Mac. Also you all seem to be forgetting something. The bear. If we can figure out who he or she is we can maybe ask him or her to kill off someone that might be a wolf during the night phase.

Boromir88 · 08-13-2009, 08:24 AM

Truthfully I've been up since 9, and knew you had not reached 5 pages. But I haven't been able to check in since getting up, and now that I have and re-check and we are at 5...you all live!

P.S. if I had a choice between licking a cactus or hugging the Dark Monarch, I would chose the cactus every time.

Rikae · 08-13-2009, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hakon

Rikae, what game did some innocents trick the wolves so well? I kind of unintentionally tricked Boro into making a slip last game when I posted my ranger suspicions involving Mac. Also you all seem to be forgetting something. The bear. If we can figure out who he or she is we can maybe ask him or her to kill off someone that might be a wolf during the night phase.

Not only do I not remember which game, but I think going into detail about how and why would probably be counterproductive at this time.
If you really want to see examples, you're welcome to read through the 20+ games I've played over the last three years.

You know, it's funny - Hansy thought that villagers could control werebears, too. You really have a lot in common. I'll tell you what we told him: werebears are out for themselves and have no reason to help the village. If we find the werebear, he can't win. Village and werebear cannot win together.

Macalaure · 08-13-2009, 08:39 AM

Innocents play tricks, gifteds play tricks, wolves play tricks. Some wolves don't play tricks, too, and still win. The key is to figure out people's intentions behind what trickery or non-trickery they do. Not an easy task, of course.

Hakon, if we figure out who the bear is, the wolves obviously know the same and the bear will die right away anyway. Also, the bear is the role which is among the hardest to figure out and since he is not our side, he won't reveal out of kindness.

wilwarin538 · 08-13-2009, 08:39 AM

˙dǝǝɥs pɐǝp ɐ ʎq pǝƃɐʌɐs ƃuıǝq ǝʞıl sı ǝʎǝ-plıʍ ʎq pǝʞɔɐʇʇɐ ƃuıǝq

Rikae · 08-13-2009, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

P.S. if I had a choice between licking a cactus or hugging the Dark Monarch, I would chose the cactus every time.

Hugging a... horrible giant insect with disgusting brightly colored wings?

*twitches*

I'd choose the cactus too.

Hakon · 08-13-2009, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Innocents play tricks, gifteds play tricks, wolves play tricks. Some wolves don't play tricks, too, and still win. The key is to figure out people's intentions behind what trickery or non-trickery they do. Not an easy task, of course.

Hakon, if we figure out who the bear is, the wolves obviously know the same and the bear will die right away anyway. Also, the bear is the role which is among the hardest to figure out and since he is not our side, he won't reveal out of kindness.

That is true. I still think the bear can kill at least one person we are suspicious of.

Rikae, it is great that you think I am like another member but this Hansy guy sounds like a person I should not want to be like. I would also like to point out Phantom gave me the idea of using the bear. His post where he mentions the codes also talks about the bear.

Rikae · 08-13-2009, 08:49 AM

Why do you think the bear would do what you say, Hakon?

As for you should want to be like Hansy or not, that's your call. He was around right before you joined, but seems to have not been back since.

Hakon · 08-13-2009, 09:16 AM

Not what I specifically say but what all of us decide. Really once the bear was found out he or she would either be lynched soon after or killed by the wolves.

mormegil · 08-13-2009, 09:18 AM

Phantom's post about the werebear is coherent enough for me. If I were the bear I would begin to target wolves too. It is worthwhile to form a temporary alliance for the bear as the greatest danger to him/her is the wolves who will be active in searching for him to be sure.

To get things moving

++Hakon

I think him pulling on the fact that I mentioned phantom pre-game is odd and seems an attempt to cast early suspicions. Clearly it failed and he wisely backed off but the seed was still planted. It could be knee-jerk but I still thought it odd. Of course, and as always Rikae is somewhat suspicious.

Inziladun · 08-13-2009, 09:22 AM

It seems to me flushing out the Bear will be more difficult than finding the wolves. The bear isn't bound by loyalties to anyone, meaning they can freely vote for wolves at any time with no worries. In fact, it's in their best interest to do so, since the wolves are an obvious threat to them as well.

Edit- Just saw Mormegil's post

Rikae · 08-13-2009, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hakon

Not what I specifically say but what all of us decide. Really once the bear was found out he or she would either be lynched soon after or killed by the wolves.

Yes, xe would ... so why do you think we could have the bear kill someone we choose? Please enlighten me.

If we find the bear, we lynch xem.

Nerwen · 08-13-2009, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hakon

I haven an idea on how to start figuring out who the wolves are. Boro told us in the admin thread that some of the roles would be picked based on those surveys. My guess is that the people who got put down for trusted the most are the wolves and cobbler. The ones who got put down for distrust the most are probably now just ordinaries. What do you all think? Should we post out answers to the survey?

You're very likely right... at least I've got no idea what else that survey was for. But Rikae's right, too: doing what you suggest comes this close to cheating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessa Telrunya

I think the most likely strategy, that everyone will most likely fall into anyways, is to blindly vote Day one as they always have, and then look back at who voted who, and who was Night killed for motives.

But the problem lies in this: when all we can do toDay is vote blindly, how will our votes mean anything? There's no point in giving a well-thought reason when there's nothing to go on for us villagers(and gifteds). If we just tell the truth about why we're voting instead of trying to sound smart(guilty here) then it will be easier to distinguish who is who.

Nessa, we Fenrissed Sally on Day One last time (with a little help from our cobbler) based on her suspicious behaviour... it can be done. Besides, the wolves aren't going to tell the truth anyway: they'll say, "Oh, I'm voting X completely at random," whether they are or not. What's the point?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikae

Newren - C htiw snigeb taht gnihtemos eye elttil ym htiw yps I.

?"gnimrahC" ...hU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikae

Why do you think the bear would do what you say, Hakon?

Well, the phantom thinks the bear would do what he says... maybe phantomitis is catching.

EDIT:X'd since Rikae at #171.

Rikae · 08-13-2009, 09:26 AM

And I think all this bear talk is a sidetrack with the whiff of wolvery or cobblery about it.

Good bear strategy changes with the circumstances. Talking about it on Day one is nothing but a massive waste of time.

Hakon · 08-13-2009, 09:26 AM

Because we can use the bear to kill a possible wolf or cobbler. Morm I am hoping you retract that vote. I am very arrogant it is just starting to show since I have started speaking to the Phantom.

Crossed with Rikae's 177.

Rikae · 08-13-2009, 09:29 AM

Phantom hopes, but I highly doubt it'll work. However, giving advice to a hidden bear who thinks xe has a chance to win, and attempting to give orders to a known bear who has nothing to lose are two completely different things. The first is a long shot, the second is completely ridiculous.

Rikae · 08-13-2009, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hakon

Because we can use the bear to kill a possible wolf or cobbler. Morm I am hoping you retract that vote. I am very arrogant it is just starting to show since I have started speaking to the Phantom.

Crossed with Rikae's 177.

Um, yes... I'll speak very slowly here so I can be sure you understand...

To the pain means... Oh, wait, that's not it.

Why exactly do you think we can control the bear if we know xyr role?

Rikae · 08-13-2009, 09:32 AM

I swear, if this persists, I'll vote Hakon out of sheer irritation.

Hakon · 08-13-2009, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikae

Um, yes... I'll speak very slowly here so I can be sure you understand...

To the pain means... Oh, wait, that's not it.

Why exactly do you think we can control the bear if we know xyr role?

If we figure out who the bear is, the bear will either end up lynched or a wolf will kill it. So if we figure it out then during the night phase the bear can kill a possible cobbler or wolf since the second the next day phase starts the bear will most likely by lynched or the bear will die int he night phase because a wolf kills it.

Crossed with Rikae's 181.

Nerwen · 08-13-2009, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hakon

If we figure out who the bear is, the bear will either end up lynched or a wolf will kill it. So if we figure it out then during the night phase the bear can kill a possible cobbler or wolf since the second the next day phase starts the bear will most likely by lynched or the bear will die int he night phase because a wolf kills it.

...your point being...?

Hakon · 08-13-2009, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

...your point being...?

Since the bear will be dead either way we might as well try and ask the bear to kill someone for us. It is a long shot but I think it is worth a try and the key thing to remember here is that it only works if we figure who the bear is and since that is not a priority right now this plan will probably never happen.

Nerwen · 08-13-2009, 09:37 AM

Hakon, you do realize the bear's one of the bad guys, don't you?

Hakon · 08-13-2009, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Hakon, you do realize the bear's one of the bad guys, don't you?

Yes I know that. I am pointing out that the bear can be used to our(the villagers) advantage.

Macalaure · 08-13-2009, 09:38 AM

I'm sure the wolves are very amused by this bear-discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hakon

So if we figure it out then during the night phase...

If we figure it out, then the bear should have no more night phases.

That's a big if, btw. Most likely, if the bear will be lynched, it will be out of general suspiciousness rather than a concrete one.

Rikae · 08-13-2009, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hakon

If we figure out who the bear is, the bear will either end up lynched or a wolf will kill it. So if we figure it out then during the night phase the bear can kill a possible cobbler or wolf since the second the next day phase starts the bear will most likely by lynched or the bear will die int he night phase because a wolf kills it.

Yes, the bear can kill a cobbler or wolf - or an innocent. The bear is as good as dead in that case anyway, and will kill whomever xe wants. Letting xem have another night kill would be absurd.

Please don't make me explain this again. This is not why I play werewolf.

Hakon · 08-13-2009, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikae

Yes, the bear can kill a cobbler or wolf - or an innocent. The bear is as good as dead in that case anyway, and will kill whomever xe wants. Letting xem have another night kill would be absurd.

Please don't make me explain this again. This is not why I play werewolf.

I don't need you to explain that again. I understand what you are saying. I am just pointing stuff out. Since this seems to be causing an unnecessary argument and the bear is not a priority let us move on to talk about the priority which is the wolves. Mac, I agree with you about the wolves being very amused.

Rikae · 08-13-2009, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hakon

Yes I know that. I am pointing out that the bear can be used to our(the villagers) advantage.

The bear can kill wolves and cobblers, accidentally or or purpose, if xe has a strong suspicion and feels it's in xyr best interests. This does not mean the bear will kill the person we ask xem to.

Now, for God's sake, people, stop this foolishness! If I lack better suspects I'll vote Hakon on the grounds that even if he is innocent, he's only a liability to the village. That might seem harsh, but for crying out loud...

Hakon · 08-13-2009, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikae

If I lack better suspects I'll vote Hakon on the grounds that even if he is innocent, he's only a liability to the village. That might seem harsh, but for crying out loud...

I understand. I mean if I do not have any suspects I am voting anyone who uses backwards text later in the day.

Nerwen · 08-13-2009, 09:51 AM

Why aren't we asking the wolves to kill the bear, too? In fact, why don't we just make it a formal request?

Dear Bear and Wolves,

Please kill each other and not us.

Yours Sincerely,

The Villagers.

I'm sure they'll all listen.

EDIT: X'd with Hakon.

mormegil · 08-13-2009, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hakon

Morm I am hoping you retract that vote.

Okay fine

--Hakon

++Hakon

Rikae · 08-13-2009, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hakon

I don't need you to explain that again. I understand what you are saying. I am just pointing stuff out. Since this seems to be causing an unnecessary argument and the bear is not a priority let us move on to talk about the priority which is the wolves. Mac, I agree with you about the wolves being very amused.

Oh lovely. So now you're going to try and turn it around and claim someone else was sidetracking the conversation? I also note you didn't admit you were wrong.

I'm not going to waste a vote on you unless I don't see anyone more suspicious, but I'm going to have to stop responding to you, for the sake of my blood pressure.

Nerwen · 08-13-2009, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hakon

I understand. I mean if I do not have any suspects I am voting anyone who uses backwards text later in the day.

!tol a sknahT

EDIT: X'd with Morm and Rikae.

Rikae · 08-13-2009, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Why aren't we asking the wolves to kill the bear, too? In fact, why don't we just make it a formal request?

Dear Bear and Wolves,

Please kill each other and not us.

Yours Sincerely,

The Villagers.

I'm sure they'll all listen.

EDIT: X'd with Hakon.

That is the best thing ever.

Hakon · 08-13-2009, 10:01 AM

Morm, thank you for retracting it.

EDIT: I removed all personal content from the post. Now it is just the one line.

mormegil · 08-13-2009, 10:03 AM

Personal conversations that could be considered offensive such as the one currently progressing are to be terminated immediately. Please delete all such content or I will delete it. Boromir is aware of this.

WW games should not result in personal attacks or insults!

the phantom · 08-13-2009, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikae

I'll tell you what we told him: werebears are out for themselves and have no reason to help the village. If we find the werebear, he can't win. Village and werebear cannot win together.

Yes they can. They can at least band together against the common enemy. Not to mention that I'd rather the Bear win than the villains, for the Dark Monarch is supposed to be the big baddie here. Plus the Cobbler is on the villain's side too. They are the primary threat. If the Bear wins, I'll be somewhat happy because at least I managed to eliminate four baddies along the way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hakon

Since the bear will be dead either way we might as well try and ask the bear to kill someone for us. It is a long shot but I think it is worth a try and the key thing to remember here is that it only works if we figure who the bear is and since that is not a priority right now this plan will probably never happen.

I agree that we might as well try. Since the Bear is out for himself, if he sees his doom approaching, it is completely within his rights and power to help us out with his last kill. After all, Dark Monarch screwed him up with her attempted gift giving, so perhaps his grudge against her is greater than his dislike for us.

The odds of such a situation arising are very tiny, but just in case, why not reach out to him? It's not like it hurts anything.

As far as Hakon's talk about discussing our surveys, I don't see anything wrong with it. Frankly, I believe Boro intended us to discuss it, and possibly gain suspicions from it (and of course lie about our results). I agree that it would be in poor taste to actually quote any PM sent to or received from the Mods, but I see nothing wrong with stating "I said I couldn't read so-and-so", because really we have no idea how the information was used. If I recall, it seems to me that Boro almost dared us to guess how he was using the info.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boro

P.S. if I had a choice between licking a cactus or hugging the Dark Monarch, I would chose the cactus every time.

Not I. Evil doesn't equal ugly.

Nerwen · 08-13-2009, 10:10 AM

Content deleted because it was a reply to something Hakon said at #198, which has been removed.

08-13-2009, 08:12 AM	#161
Nessa Telrunya Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: In a paper bag Posts: 396	The thing about innocents, is that their only concern should be to figure out who the baddies are. The wolves and gifteds are the ones who need to play tricks, and for either self preservation or some other motive. __________________ Joined together wrote our names upon the page Seven times alliance our loyalties we gave

08-13-2009, 08:22 AM	#164
Hakon Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Twilight Zone Posts: 736	Rikae, what game did some innocents trick the wolves so well? I kind of unintentionally tricked Boro into making a slip last game when I posted my ranger suspicions involving Mac. Also you all seem to be forgetting something. The bear. If we can figure out who he or she is we can maybe ask him or her to kill off someone that might be a wolf during the night phase. __________________ Medicine for the soul. ~Inscription over the door of the Library at Thebes

08-13-2009, 08:24 AM	#165
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Truthfully I've been up since 9, and knew you had not reached 5 pages. But I haven't been able to check in since getting up, and now that I have and re-check and we are at 5...you all live! P.S. if I had a choice between licking a cactus or hugging the Dark Monarch, I would chose the cactus every time. __________________ Fenris Penguin

08-13-2009, 08:39 AM	#168
wilwarin538 Fluttering Enchantment Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 2,508	˙dǝǝɥs pɐǝp ɐ ʎq pǝƃɐʌɐs ƃuıǝq ǝʞıl sı ǝʎǝ-plıʍ ʎq pǝʞɔɐʇʇɐ ƃuıǝq __________________ Comme une étoile amarante Comme un papillon de nuit C'est la lumière qui m'attire La flamme qui m'éblouit Fenris Muffin

08-13-2009, 08:49 AM	#171
Rikae Mellifluous Maia Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth Posts: 3,489	Why do you think the bear would do what you say, Hakon? As for you should want to be like Hansy or not, that's your call. He was around right before you joined, but seems to have not been back since. Last edited by Rikae; 08-13-2009 at 08:51 AM. Reason: that should say "as for whether you should..."

08-13-2009, 08:15 AM	#162
Rikae Mellifluous Maia Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth Posts: 3,489	On the contrary, if the innocents can manage to trick the wolves it can be very helpful. I've seen some amazing feats of deception from ordos. I'll let you figure out how yourself, though.

08-13-2009, 08:39 AM	#167
Macalaure Fading Fëanorion Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: into the flood again Posts: 2,911	Innocents play tricks, gifteds play tricks, wolves play tricks. Some wolves don't play tricks, too, and still win. The key is to figure out people's intentions behind what trickery or non-trickery they do. Not an easy task, of course. Hakon, if we figure out who the bear is, the wolves obviously know the same and the bear will die right away anyway. Also, the bear is the role which is among the hardest to figure out and since he is not our side, he won't reveal out of kindness.

08-13-2009, 09:16 AM	#172
Hakon Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Twilight Zone Posts: 736	Not what I specifically say but what all of us decide. Really once the bear was found out he or she would either be lynched soon after or killed by the wolves. __________________ Medicine for the soul. ~Inscription over the door of the Library at Thebes

08-13-2009, 09:18 AM	#173
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,651	Phantom's post about the werebear is coherent enough for me. If I were the bear I would begin to target wolves too. It is worthwhile to form a temporary alliance for the bear as the greatest danger to him/her is the wolves who will be active in searching for him to be sure. To get things moving ++Hakon I think him pulling on the fact that I mentioned phantom pre-game is odd and seems an attempt to cast early suspicions. Clearly it failed and he wisely backed off but the seed was still planted. It could be knee-jerk but I still thought it odd. Of course, and as always Rikae is somewhat suspicious. __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

08-13-2009, 09:22 AM	#174
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,039	It seems to me flushing out the Bear will be more difficult than finding the wolves. The bear isn't bound by loyalties to anyone, meaning they can freely vote for wolves at any time with no worries. In fact, it's in their best interest to do so, since the wolves are an obvious threat to them as well. Edit- Just saw Mormegil's post __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God. Last edited by Inziladun; 08-13-2009 at 09:28 AM.

08-13-2009, 09:26 AM	#177
Rikae Mellifluous Maia Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth Posts: 3,489	And I think all this bear talk is a sidetrack with the whiff of wolvery or cobblery about it. Good bear strategy changes with the circumstances. Talking about it on Day one is nothing but a massive waste of time.

08-13-2009, 09:26 AM	#178
Hakon Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Twilight Zone Posts: 736	Because we can use the bear to kill a possible wolf or cobbler. Morm I am hoping you retract that vote. I am very arrogant it is just starting to show since I have started speaking to the Phantom. Crossed with Rikae's 177. __________________ Medicine for the soul. ~Inscription over the door of the Library at Thebes

08-13-2009, 09:29 AM	#179
Rikae Mellifluous Maia Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth Posts: 3,489	Phantom hopes, but I highly doubt it'll work. However, giving advice to a hidden bear who thinks xe has a chance to win, and attempting to give orders to a known bear who has nothing to lose are two completely different things. The first is a long shot, the second is completely ridiculous.

08-13-2009, 09:32 AM	#181
Rikae Mellifluous Maia Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth Posts: 3,489	I swear, if this persists, I'll vote Hakon out of sheer irritation.

08-13-2009, 09:37 AM	#185
Nerwen Wisest of the Noldor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ Posts: 6,694	Hakon, you do realize the bear's one of the bad guys, don't you? __________________ "Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.

08-13-2009, 09:51 AM	#192
Nerwen Wisest of the Noldor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ Posts: 6,694	Why aren't we asking the wolves to kill the bear, too? In fact, why don't we just make it a formal request? Dear Bear and Wolves, Please kill each other and not us. Yours Sincerely, The Villagers. I'm sure they'll all listen. EDIT: X'd with Hakon. __________________ "Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.

08-13-2009, 10:01 AM	#197
Hakon Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Twilight Zone Posts: 736	Morm, thank you for retracting it. EDIT: I removed all personal content from the post. Now it is just the one line. __________________ Medicine for the soul. ~Inscription over the door of the Library at Thebes Last edited by Hakon; 08-13-2009 at 10:07 AM.

08-13-2009, 10:03 AM	#198
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,651	Mod Note! Personal conversations that could be considered offensive such as the one currently progressing are to be terminated immediately. Please delete all such content or I will delete it. Boromir is aware of this. WW games should not result in personal attacks or insults! __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

08-13-2009, 10:10 AM	#200
Nerwen Wisest of the Noldor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ Posts: 6,694	Content deleted because it was a reply to something Hakon said at #198, which has been removed. __________________ "Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.