The Changing of Middle Earth - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Flame of Anor · 07-12-2009, 04:50 PM

I dont know if this adds anything but here is a link to a map of Arda in the First Age

http://users.abo.fi/jolin/tolkien/at...ge_of_arda.gif

JeffF. · 07-22-2009, 02:37 PM

I recently got out the maps in the Silmarillion and the map in Unfinished Tales (UT)(which is an updated version of the one in LotR). I realized that the distance from the hill Himring to the Ered Luin mountains in the Silmarillion map is twice that as the island of Himling is from the mountains of Ered Luin in the UT map. To me that indicates that there is a difference in scale between the two maps (since the hill Himring and the island Himling are the same geological feature and that the area were are looking at in the UT map is about twice the size of the area of the Silmarillion map, or more precisely the scale of the Silmarillion map is half that of the UT map.

It does not appear that this difference in scale has been taken into account in the mergin of the two maps in the earlier post.

skip spence · 07-23-2009, 07:15 AM

I agree that the Beleriand part of the map should shrink, off the top of my head perhaps by half or more.

I did a quick search on the net for scaled ME maps but found very little of any quality, which isn't to say that they don't exist. Frankly I would be surprised if they don't, as enough information to make scaled maps should be out there. There are plenty of implicit and explicit mentions of distances scattered throughout his works and Tolkien seems to have spent a lot of time trying to get these things right too (which isn't to say that he did on every instance mind you). Therefore it should be fairly easy to make maps with distances, not that I intend to.

Here are a few mentions of distances that I dug up should anyone feel the urge. There are other too no doubt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Silm

East Beleriand [is] at its widest a hundred leagues from Sirion to Gelion and the borders of Ossirand

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Silm

The great highlands of Dorthonion stretched sixty leagues from west to east

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Silm

The gates of Morgoth were but one hundred and fifty leagues distant from the bridge of Menegroth

Quote:

Originally Posted by LotR

Forty leagues ... [the Shire] stretched from the Far Downs to the Brandywine Bridge, and fifty from the northern moors to the marches in the south

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eomers words to Aragorn in Rohan (LotR)

Forty leagues and five have you measured ere the the forth day is ended [from Rauros to the Entwash]

Gollum also states that from the crossroads near Minas Morgul the road goes a hundred leagues south before you can see "the Great Water that is never still" but I don't know how much use that is.

I think a ME league is meant to be about 3 English Miles, or roughly 5 km.

skip spence · 07-23-2009, 09:17 AM

I couldn't resist investigating a bit further as I got back and according to my calculations the distance between the Grey Havens and Rivendell ought to be roughly 200 leagues as the crow flies.

On Hookbill's map the width of East Beleriand (100 leagues) appears to be a little bit longer than the distance between the Blue Mountains and the Misty Mountains (aprox. 200 leagues) which suggests that the Beleriand part of the map should be scaled down to at least half the size than as shown. I suppose it would be more difficult to assess the latitude position of the various places in Beleriand however. You do get the feeling that the locations are placed too far to the north generally though (and, of course, that they should be closer together). Fex. I feel that Doriath and Menegroth should be located to the south of the Shire and Rivendell, not north of it as on Hookbill's map.

Hope you take this as constructive criticism Hookbill, although it is a bit nit-picky, I know.

Galin · 07-23-2009, 09:49 AM

Perhaps also check out KWF's introductory comments under How Long is a League, and (within that commentary) her remarks concerning the Blue Mountains (Atlas of Middle-Earth).

Not that her book is perfect (nor does she claim so), and it could not be approved by JRRT of course, but I think this would be an important concern for her book overall. She not only provides a scale of miles for her FA map, but also mapped the Far North, where Christopher Tolkien himself would not go (for his Silmarillion maps).

07-22-2009, 02:37 PM	#2
JeffF. Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 70	Difference in scale in the two maps I recently got out the maps in the Silmarillion and the map in Unfinished Tales (UT)(which is an updated version of the one in LotR). I realized that the distance from the hill Himring to the Ered Luin mountains in the Silmarillion map is twice that as the island of Himling is from the mountains of Ered Luin in the UT map. To me that indicates that there is a difference in scale between the two maps (since the hill Himring and the island Himling are the same geological feature and that the area were are looking at in the UT map is about twice the size of the area of the Silmarillion map, or more precisely the scale of the Silmarillion map is half that of the UT map. It does not appear that this difference in scale has been taken into account in the mergin of the two maps in the earlier post. __________________ JeffF(Fingolfin)

07-23-2009, 09:17 AM	#4
skip spence shadow of a doubt Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the streets Posts: 1,125	I couldn't resist investigating a bit further as I got back and according to my calculations the distance between the Grey Havens and Rivendell ought to be roughly 200 leagues as the crow flies. On Hookbill's map the width of East Beleriand (100 leagues) appears to be a little bit longer than the distance between the Blue Mountains and the Misty Mountains (aprox. 200 leagues) which suggests that the Beleriand part of the map should be scaled down to at least half the size than as shown. I suppose it would be more difficult to assess the latitude position of the various places in Beleriand however. You do get the feeling that the locations are placed too far to the north generally though (and, of course, that they should be closer together). Fex. I feel that Doriath and Menegroth should be located to the south of the Shire and Rivendell, not north of it as on Hookbill's map. Hope you take this as constructive criticism Hookbill, although it is a bit nit-picky, I know. __________________ "You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan Last edited by skip spence; 07-23-2009 at 09:22 AM.

07-12-2009, 04:50 PM	#1
Flame of Anor Newly Deceased Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 10	I dont know if this adds anything but here is a link to a map of Arda in the First Age http://users.abo.fi/jolin/tolkien/at...ge_of_arda.gif

07-23-2009, 09:49 AM	#5
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	Perhaps also check out KWF's introductory comments under How Long is a League, and (within that commentary) her remarks concerning the Blue Mountains (Atlas of Middle-Earth). Not that her book is perfect (nor does she claim so), and it could not be approved by JRRT of course, but I think this would be an important concern for her book overall. She not only provides a scale of miles for her FA map, but also mapped the Far North, where Christopher Tolkien himself would not go (for his Silmarillion maps).