The Changing of Middle Earth

[Pitchwife]

Nice work with the maps indeed, Hookbill! If I'm allowed to nitpick just an tiny bit - are the Silmarillion and LotR maps actually to the same scale? My Sil map is not yet unpacked after moving, so I can't check, but I've got a feeling Beleriand should be smaller in comparison; the Ered Luin form a double curve (roughly like a mirrored 3) in both maps, which probably should have about the same north-south extension.
(Btw, is it just me, or does the big lake in the middle of Enedwaith look suspiciously like the Sea of Nurnen rotated 90 degrees?)

Otherwise, good point about the increasing distance between the Valar and M-E. It just came to my mind that maybe Eru actually planned this - and therefore didn't show the Ainur all of the story, because he never intended them to play an active role in the later ages of history. After all, the Valar, as I see them, were essentially demiurgic beings - which is to say, their chief work was during the creation and the early ages of the work, shaping and preparing the habitation for the Children; and of course, while one of their order was messing with the project, the rest were needed to counteract him.
But I think Eru always planned for Men to eventually inherit the Earth, and there is evidence that he considered Men, much more than Elves, under his personal jurisdiction (according to Adanel's Tale in the Athrabeth, he spoke to the Fathers & Mothers of Men directly, which he never did with his Firstborn Children!). So the more the Elves faded and Men took over, the less the Valar would need, or indeed be permitted, to intervene. Their extremely cautious and indirect action in the Third Age (sending the Istari incarnated in human form) seems to indicate that by this time they, too, had finally got the message. The final stage - after Sauron had been dealt with, from the Fourth Age onward - was probably always intended to be Mankind Directly Under God, without any intermediary divine or angelic powers playing an active part in the physical world any more.
(In extra-textual terms, we might call this a transition from a mythological to a theological world-view. When Tolkien first created his mythology, he felt the need for something like the Greek or Norse Gods in his secondary world, but the more the history of the secondary world approached the (pre-)history of the primary world, the more the mythological elements (Gods and Elves) were eliminated in order to make the secondary world conform to his primary world faith.)

(P.S. - Mnemosyne, what is it with those Estimated Time of Arrivals of yours? Or am I misunderstanding something?)

[Mnemosyne]

"Edited to add," Pitchwife.

[Rumil]

Hi Hookbill,

really nice thread, I like the maps a lot!

a while back there was some discussion on Himling (the island that appears on some maps) ie Himring, which may or may not be a third age survival of Beleriand.

See here-
(unsurprisingly the canonicity is disputed )
BD thread on remains of Beleriand

Typically the old link to the map discussed on that thread is dead and I could only find a diagram online - scroll down to the bottom--
Diagram

After a little more searching, here's the Encyclopaedia of Arda's take on it,
Where in Middle Earth was Beleriand?

Looks pretty close to yours, but if you believe the canonicity this should be the key.

After a bit more of a stare, maybe your Beleriand needs to shrink a bit?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Mnemosyne
The most obvious forms of help (i.e., the Istari), only have a 20% success rate, and even subtler ones (i.e., the wind from the Sea around March 15 and Sam seeing Earendil in Mordor) can't be attributed to them at all.

And there's perhaps the most crucial intervention, Bilbo's finding the ring
(although it's unclear who's the agent, the valar or Eru).

Was the eagles saving Thorin and Co. another example?

Perhaps an interesting example of the lessening influence of the valar in
Middle-earth is the decreasing influence of fate/predetermined history.
In Beleriand very strongly with the Children of Hurin, but also
Osse explaining to Tuor how he (Osse) can intervene to help but only to
a limited extent:

So it shall be while I endure, a secret voice that gainsayeth,
and a light where darkness was decreed. Therefore, though in the days
of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the
West, that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the
making of the World.

Good maps above, but, other then Karen Forstad's atlas, haven't seen much
on the bulk of Middle-earth to the east and south. While barely glimpsed
vistas are integral to the historicity of Middle-earth, it would be nice to
know more of that region (and the Blue Wizards and the other dwarf
houses).

Btw, shouldn't the wizard success rate be 30% ? Radagast didn't
go to the dark side, and presumably did some good keeping some
kelvar and olvar"good" (at least around Eriador and Rhovannion).

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Nice work with the maps indeed, Hookbill! If I'm allowed to nitpick just an tiny bit - are the Silmarillion and LotR maps actually to the same scale?

The best I felt I could do was resize the M-E Map so that the mountains of Ered Luin were roughly the same size. The scale wasn't that important to me as I just wanted some form of visual representation for what I thought was supposed to have happened based on C-T's explanation.
But I love maps and map drawing anyway...

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

(Btw, is it just me, or does the big lake in the middle of Enedwaith look suspiciously like the Sea of Nurnen rotated 90 degrees?)

*shifty eyes* ... Maybe... *runs away*

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

After all, the Valar, as I see them, were essentially demiurgic beings - which is to say, their chief work was during the creation and the early ages of the work, shaping and preparing the habitation for the Children; and of course, while one of their order was messing with the project, the rest were needed to counteract him.

That's a nice summery.
I have noticed that several mythologies seem to work in this way; in the early stages the gods are at the forefront of the story, and as it goes on, human characters become more and more important.
Take the Bible, for example. You have the creation song at the beginning and lots of divine intervention. After that the focus shifts to the human characters with YHVH's interventions becoming less frequent or emphasised. Human agents are installed to speak for the divine at best towards the end of the OT.
The same can be said of Sumerian and even Egyptian mythologies. The tales of human heroes become more popular as time goes on, so perhaps it's a common convention Tolkien wished to mirror. Another interesting thing to note is that after creating, many gods take up destruction as an alternate pass time, sometimes leading to floods, epic battles, Numenor and Ragnorok.

Thanks for those links, Rumil!

I'd seen the EoA one before but didn't think it looked too good and when I used it to try and explain the process to someone, they got more confused. So, that's partly why I made my own version for personal satisfaction.

Originally Posted by Rumil

After a bit more of a stare, maybe your Beleriand needs to shrink a bit?

As I said, I was using the mountains as a scale. But now that you mention it, it does look a tad too small. Blast. But, as I said, it's for illustrative purposes mainly.

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

And there's perhaps the most crucial intervention, Bilbo's finding the ring
(although it's unclear who's the agent, the valar or Eru).

Was the eagles saving Thorin and Co. another example?

This is something I wanted to touch on. Events such as the finding of the Ring, the Eagles arriving at the right time and the wind changing in a battle appear to be, at best, nudges in the right direction. Far from the blazing hosts of the Valar, Ulmo rising from the depths in might and so on, the Valar seem to take something of a back seat, prodding and poking at history from time to time.
The main point being, as they get physically further away, their influences become less physical. And when they do interact physically, it causes destruction rather than creation, you could argue. The War of Wroth, The Akalabeth and, perhaps, the battle of the end of the world.
Maybe it is partly because Sauron maintains his connection to M-E that he is able to affect it so palpably?

JeffF, what you say sounds familiar, but I had a look through HoME and couldn't find it. Hmm. I'll have a closer look later on. Tired now.

[Mithadan]

Some excellent posts here. This could have been several separate threads considering the fine discussion on the various posts raised.

Hookbill, nice map. Pitchwife is correct, however. The scale is wrong, although the gerneral location is correct. Beleriand did not extend very far south of the end of the Blue Mountains as shown in the LoTR map, although there may be undescribed lands south of the main body of Beleriand that do not appear in the Silmarillion map (beyond Taur-im Duinath). We also do not know how much of the coastlands were destroyed at the time Numenor was drowned; we have no Second Age maps from Tolkien other than a sketch of Numenor.

Mnemosyne, great point and one I never really considered. Morgoth's Ring is so named based upon the idea that all of the world, not just Beleriand, was to Morgoth as the Ring was to Sauron. Morgoth invested so much of his power into corruptiing the world that what remained to him was insufficient to retain control of it or oppose the Valar. Indeed, he was barely able to withstand the Noldor. Compare him at the time of the War of the Jewels with Morgoth of Utumno and even earlier when he was able to overturn mountains and toppled the two Lamps. But even so, Beleriand may have become so infused with his evil that the Valar felt compelled to destroy it, as opposed to it sinking as a result of the War of Wrath. Interesting idea, I don't think it is consonant with what Tolkien wrote("so great was the fury of those adversaries that the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder...").

Hookbill, the Valar do, effectively, abandon Middle Earth after the First Age, at least so far as direct intervention. But this is, I think, simply part of the nature of the myth and is not directly related to the distance between Valinor and Middle Earth. It was fated that the Elves would wane and Man would become ascendant. Similarly, by the end of the Third Age we see a complete fading of the mythological, the Valar, the Elves etc. They are not merely inactive, but rather they physically leave the world to Man and Middle Earth becomes in fact an ancient version of our primary world. This was, in part dictated by the Music of the Valar and not necessarily the Vision. If I recall, the Vision ended at or just after the awakening of the Elves. But the Music contained much more, such as the awakening of Man, and seems to have dictated the fading of the Eldar (and perhaps even the Valar). In addition, Men are more fragile than Elves and when they die they do not return. I think the Valar feared that continued direct intervention in Middle Earth would harm Men.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Great topic. And the extended maps look great.

My only constructive comment is that the East Bight of Mirkwood didn't exist in the First Age !

[JeffF.]

According to Unfinished Tales It was the hill of Himring that survived as the island Himling off the coast of Northern Ered Luin and not the Gulf of Luhn. It is interesting that this hill, not a mountain, but the highest hill in an area of hills survived as an island but the mountains near it were sunk implying that this hill was raised while the mountains were lowered.

The island of Himling is shown in the map of Unfinished Tales but not in the LotR.

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

According to Unfinished Tales It was the hill of Himring that survived as the island Himling off the coast of Northern Ered Luin and not the Gulf of Luhn. It is interesting that this hill, not a mountain, but the highest hill in an area of hills survived as an island but the mountains near it were sunk implying that this hill was raised while the mountains were lowered.

Perhaps Morgoth's orc had fled into the mountains, so the Valar decided to just drown them all. It would be the easiest way to deal with the problem.

I'm bad with maps, so I can't comment on them.

[JeffF.]

after thinking more about it the powers and force that could rend the very earth in such a horrific manner would probably not be an even effect of lowering or raising the whole rather a mix of both in various places.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Hookbill, nice map. Pitchwife is correct, however. The scale is wrong, although the gerneral location is correct. Beleriand did not extend very far south of the end of the Blue Mountains as shown in the LoTR map, although there may be undescribed lands south of the main body of Beleriand that do not appear in the Silmarillion map (beyond Taur-im Duinath)

Perhaps I should explain how I went about making the map;
I got the two source maps together and cut the sea out of the M-E one. Then, I made the M-E map semitransparent and tried to line it up as best I could with the Beleriand map. It took me ages to get to what looked about right, but I came to the conclusion that they weren't made strictly with one another in mind. The lines of the Ered Luin are almost entirely different in M-E to what they are in Beleriand.
But, the point is not important, I think, as it was only for personal investigation purposes... originally.

Originally Posted by Mithadan

But this is, I think, simply part of the nature of the myth and is not directly related to the distance between Valinor and Middle Earth. It was fated that the Elves would wane and Man would become ascendant. Similarly, by the end of the Third Age we see a complete fading of the mythological, the Valar, the Elves etc

I would argue that there is a relationship between the sundering of Valinor and the Valars increased inactivity. Not that the sundering caused them to stop interacting physically, but that it is representative and almost a consequence of their disconnection. They withdraw from a world they don't understand.

This brings up an interesting thought to me. Something about the different attitudes of the Ainur towards Middle Earth. It seems that none of them really 'get' it; the vision of Eru was taken away from them before its fulfilment and they seem distinctly disconnected from the children. The land itself they are fine with, moulding it to their individual whims.
But then come the children of Illuvatar. Most of the Valar react with curiosity and yet misunderstand what is going on. As Tolkien himself said in an interview 'instead of letting the elves and men find their own way under god, they decided to take them away and protect them...' Melkor, on the other hand, rather than seeking to protect them, seeks to destroy and / or control them. Neither seem satisfied with what Eru had in mind.
So, the Valar, in what you might call a sense of discomfort, remove themselves and any who are like-minded, away from that whole path. Either by physically taking them elsewhere, or destroying them / controlling them. Freedom doesn't seem to be high on their priorities.

[Findegil]

Considering that the Valar were bound by the music, freedom might have been a completly unkown concept for them. Melkor was the only one experimenting with it while they played the music. He used it for himself and saw emidiatly that it is a good concept for his dealings with Eru and bad one for his own followers.
This explains as well why Manwe had so much trouble understanding Melkor.

The symbolisem of the greater physical distance between the Valar and Middle-Earth becomes even more obvious when we look over a greater time period.
- During the time of the lamps the Valar lived in Middle-Earth.
- After the destruction of the lamps Belegaer became widened by the flods and the Valar removed to Aman.
- In the war of Powers the Valar pushed Middle-Earth further away.
- In the war of Wrath they destroied Beleriand which was the coast land nearest to Aman.
- in the catalysem of the Númenorean fall Aman and the Valar were physically complettly removed from Middle-Earth.

Respectfully
Findegil

[JeffF.]

I'm away from my books but I remember reading that Mount Dolmed in Beleriand survived as an island off the coast of Ered Lindon near the Gulf of Lune and the Dwarf holds in Northern and Southern Ered Luin were remnants of Belegost and Nogrod. That would put the Third Age Middle Earth roughtly East by South East of Beleriand as a whole.