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#1 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,393
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Some excellent posts here. This could have been several separate threads considering the fine discussion on the various posts raised.
Hookbill, nice map. Pitchwife is correct, however. The scale is wrong, although the gerneral location is correct. Beleriand did not extend very far south of the end of the Blue Mountains as shown in the LoTR map, although there may be undescribed lands south of the main body of Beleriand that do not appear in the Silmarillion map (beyond Taur-im Duinath). We also do not know how much of the coastlands were destroyed at the time Numenor was drowned; we have no Second Age maps from Tolkien other than a sketch of Numenor. Mnemosyne, great point and one I never really considered. Morgoth's Ring is so named based upon the idea that all of the world, not just Beleriand, was to Morgoth as the Ring was to Sauron. Morgoth invested so much of his power into corruptiing the world that what remained to him was insufficient to retain control of it or oppose the Valar. Indeed, he was barely able to withstand the Noldor. Compare him at the time of the War of the Jewels with Morgoth of Utumno and even earlier when he was able to overturn mountains and toppled the two Lamps. But even so, Beleriand may have become so infused with his evil that the Valar felt compelled to destroy it, as opposed to it sinking as a result of the War of Wrath. Interesting idea, I don't think it is consonant with what Tolkien wrote("so great was the fury of those adversaries that the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder..."). Hookbill, the Valar do, effectively, abandon Middle Earth after the First Age, at least so far as direct intervention. But this is, I think, simply part of the nature of the myth and is not directly related to the distance between Valinor and Middle Earth. It was fated that the Elves would wane and Man would become ascendant. Similarly, by the end of the Third Age we see a complete fading of the mythological, the Valar, the Elves etc. They are not merely inactive, but rather they physically leave the world to Man and Middle Earth becomes in fact an ancient version of our primary world. This was, in part dictated by the Music of the Valar and not necessarily the Vision. If I recall, the Vision ended at or just after the awakening of the Elves. But the Music contained much more, such as the awakening of Man, and seems to have dictated the fading of the Eldar (and perhaps even the Valar). In addition, Men are more fragile than Elves and when they die they do not return. I think the Valar feared that continued direct intervention in Middle Earth would harm Men.
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#2 |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Barad-Dur
Posts: 196
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Great topic. And the extended maps look great.
My only constructive comment is that the East Bight of Mirkwood didn't exist in the First Age ! |
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#3 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 70
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Correction to my earlier
According to Unfinished Tales It was the hill of Himring that survived as the island Himling off the coast of Northern Ered Luin and not the Gulf of Luhn. It is interesting that this hill, not a mountain, but the highest hill in an area of hills survived as an island but the mountains near it were sunk implying that this hill was raised while the mountains were lowered.
The island of Himling is shown in the map of Unfinished Tales but not in the LotR.
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JeffF(Fingolfin) |
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#4 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
I'm bad with maps, so I can't comment on them. ![]()
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Busy, Busy, Busy...hoping for more free time soon. |
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#5 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 70
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Rending the Very Earth
after thinking more about it the powers and force that could rend the very earth in such a horrific manner would probably not be an even effect of lowering or raising the whole rather a mix of both in various places.
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JeffF(Fingolfin) |
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#6 | ||
Alive without breath
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 5,912
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I got the two source maps together and cut the sea out of the M-E one. Then, I made the M-E map semitransparent and tried to line it up as best I could with the Beleriand map. It took me ages to get to what looked about right, but I came to the conclusion that they weren't made strictly with one another in mind. The lines of the Ered Luin are almost entirely different in M-E to what they are in Beleriand. But, the point is not important, I think, as it was only for personal investigation purposes... originally. ![]() Quote:
This brings up an interesting thought to me. Something about the different attitudes of the Ainur towards Middle Earth. It seems that none of them really 'get' it; the vision of Eru was taken away from them before its fulfilment and they seem distinctly disconnected from the children. The land itself they are fine with, moulding it to their individual whims. But then come the children of Illuvatar. Most of the Valar react with curiosity and yet misunderstand what is going on. As Tolkien himself said in an interview 'instead of letting the elves and men find their own way under god, they decided to take them away and protect them...' Melkor, on the other hand, rather than seeking to protect them, seeks to destroy and / or control them. Neither seem satisfied with what Eru had in mind. So, the Valar, in what you might call a sense of discomfort, remove themselves and any who are like-minded, away from that whole path. Either by physically taking them elsewhere, or destroying them / controlling them. Freedom doesn't seem to be high on their priorities. ![]()
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I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... |
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#7 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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Considering that the Valar were bound by the music, freedom might have been a completly unkown concept for them. Melkor was the only one experimenting with it while they played the music. He used it for himself and saw emidiatly that it is a good concept for his dealings with Eru and bad one for his own followers.
This explains as well why Manwe had so much trouble understanding Melkor. The symbolisem of the greater physical distance between the Valar and Middle-Earth becomes even more obvious when we look over a greater time period. - During the time of the lamps the Valar lived in Middle-Earth. - After the destruction of the lamps Belegaer became widened by the flods and the Valar removed to Aman. - In the war of Powers the Valar pushed Middle-Earth further away. - In the war of Wrath they destroied Beleriand which was the coast land nearest to Aman. - in the catalysem of the Númenorean fall Aman and the Valar were physically complettly removed from Middle-Earth. Respectfully Findegil |
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