The Balrog

[Boo Radley]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Why did the Watcher in the Water grab Frodo, of all the Fellowship? Did it just feel some attraction from the Ring...?

This is what I've always believed. The Watcher could sense the power of the Ring and was attracted to it. Likewise, the Balrog, instead of being awakened (Or made aware of the party) by Pippin's dropped rock, also might have sensed the Ring and as the Ring contained quite a bit of Sauron's power, might have thought Sauron himself had come to Moria.

[JeffF.]

I agree, the ring drew the orcs that wiped out Isildur's guard when he lost the ring near Gladden Fields, it drew the Watcher in the Water to Frodo out of the whole group and the orc chietain in Balin's tomb bypassed both Aragorn and Boromir to thrust at Frodo. I also think the Balrog was drawn out of hiding toward the power of the ring. To an evil force such as the Balrog it must have seemed irresistable.

Still, given Sauron's rank among Morgoth's minions as his second in command I think there was some possibility of him drawing the Balrog into his service. in Unfinished Tales Gandalf mentions that Sauron could have made great use of Smaug had Gandalf not contrived to have him slain and it seems to me Smaug and the Balrog were probably similar in power and evil.

[Nessa Telrunya]

Perhaps Sauron could have attempted to draw the Balrog into his service with promises of whatever forms of riches it may desire? Of course, this would only work if he had anything that a Balrog could possibly want-the chances are quite slim, for why would it want to do anything for Sauron?

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Boo Radley

This is what I've always believed. The Watcher could sense the power of the Ring and was attracted to it. Likewise, the Balrog, instead of being awakened (Or made aware of the party) by Pippin's dropped rock, also might have sensed the Ring and as the Ring contained quite a bit of Sauron's power, might have thought Sauron himself had come to Moria.

The Balrog may have also sensed the presence of Gandalf, another Maia.

[Nessa Telrunya]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

The Balrog may have also sensed the presence of Gandalf, another Maia.

Yes, I think that possibility has been greatly overlooked. Gandalf's presence would surely have been strong enough to at least alert the Balrog, and Pippin's moment of "great common sense" would have woken him, if he wasn't awake already.

[Boo Radley]

Originally Posted by Nessa Telrunya

Yes, I think that possibility has been greatly overlooked. Gandalf's presence would surely have been strong enough to at least alert the Balrog, and Pippin's moment of "great common sense" would have woken him, if he wasn't awake already.

Good point. I believe Gandalf even made a comment about announcing his presence.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I believe Gandalf even made a comment about announcing his presence.

My impression is that Gandalf's observation referred to lighting the wood on Caradhras (where it probably did not alert anyone to his presence).

[QUOTE]'If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them,'
he said. 'I have written Gandalf is here[ in signs that
all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin./QUOTE]

On the general topic here, one of PJ's movie errors was to picture
all evil as directly controlled by Sauron. It's far more complicated,
interesting, and realistic to have a number of autonomous forces,
for good and evil, with possible alliances. On the bad guy side
including Sauron, Shelob, Smaug, Caradhras, balrogs, and some orcs.

It is interesting to speculate on relative powers vof Durin's Bane vs.
Third Age (ringless) Sauron. And this is another reason for Sauron's
desire for the Ring. Even if Sauron took out Gondor, Rohan, and the elves
he'd still have major concerns handling balrogs, any remaining dragons, etc.
And it's one thing to gain military victories, another to govern the mass
of Middle Earth (of which Eriador and Rhovanion were only a fraction).

Ample room for the valar and Iluvatar to eventually engineer his downfall,
certainly without the Ring available for Sauron. The temptation (except for
the Nine) to seek their own power base would be enormous. Consider that
a Moria defended only by dwarves withstood Sauron throughout the Second
Age, how much more could a Moria defended by a balrog and his
minions do?

[JeffF.]

I think the Balrog could have done much to advance Sauron's military objectives. The three attacks by Dol Guldor & Moria orcs were repulsed but had the Balrog been there it may have been a different outcome. Even if Galadriel's power was too great unless Sauron himself came the Balrog leading Dol Guldor forces easily could have overcome the Beornings and Woodmen. Thranduil's elves also would have fallen. If the Balrog linked with the Easterlings attacking the Kingdom's of Dale and Erebor they would have overthrown all the North.

[Boromir88]

(I'm so silly, I originally placed this in the assassination thread down the hall...this I believe is the proper place).

But still who's to say the Balrog would have wanted to fight for Sauron had Sauron wanted it? Sauron couldn't force the Balrog into obediance. The Balrog was a Maia, just like Sauron, maybe one not as powerful, but Melkor wasn't entirely in control of the Balrogs, as he was over his Orcs.

Durin's Bane fled, and decided to make Moria his personal retirement home, he spent his days in relaxation and comfort, arguably what his intentions were after he fled from Morgoth's service. He was stirred awake by the Dwarves, and it was also made clear he was the Orcs' commander...he seemed quite content to stay under a mountain ruling over a host of Goblins, not wanting to enter into the service of someone similar to the one he left ages ago.

And as Pitchwife wrote, their rank in Morgoth's administration is hazy. Sauron seemed to always be Morgoth's chief guy (adminstratively and maybe his general 2nd-in-command), as Sauron was Morgoth's greatest servant. However, the Balrogs were right behind him, as wasn't Gothmog, 'Lord of the Balrogs', in command of Morgoth's armies? Also, in FOTR, either Celeborn or Galadriel make clear that you will not come across a more powerful and terrifying foe unless you were to go see Sauron.

Edit: Remember, the Balrogs were not forced or bred into Morgoth's service. They were independent Maia who willingly allied themselves with Morgoth (maybe even for their own personal gains as Sauron arguably did), and they willingly left his service when they wanted to.

[Boo Radley]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

My impression is that Gandalf's observation referred to lighting the wood on Caradhras (where it probably did not alert anyone to his presence).

That's what I was referring to. And as for not alerting anyone to his presence, why do you say that? As far as I'm concerned, anyone (or thing) with any kind of ability to sense the power he used to light the fire would have known where he was.