The Balrog

[Pitchwife]

I don't think it would. The two of them probably were of roughly equal rank in the good old days under Morgoth, so the Balrog would very likely have regarded any attempt on Sauron's side to command it as presumptuous. They might have made an alliance, but the Balrog seems to have been remarkably disinterested in the affairs of the wider world - after all, it spent all those centuries since the Dwarves woke it up doing little more than sitting on its... er... hands in Moria. It's almost like it had decided to retire and only wanted to be left alone. (It only went after the Fellowship after Pippin's foolish stone had disturbed it in its peace in the deeps. Makes me wonder whether our dear Fool of a Took managed to accidentally hit Durin's Bane on the head...)

On the other hand, maybe not. Why did the Watcher in the Water grab Frodo, of all the Fellowship? Did it just feel some attraction from the Ring, or was it under orders - and if so, whose? Sauron's (who was far away) or the Balrog's (who lived next door, so to speak)? Maybe the Balrog, rather than twiddling its w... er... thumbs for centuries, had been busy all that time recruiting an army of Nameless Things at the roots of the world and was just waiting for the right moment to come out of hiding and Take Over the World - in which case it would have found the Ring quite handy (and what a chance to thumb its nose at its old colleague!). Lots of room for speculation, but little more.

As for Sauron, do we know whether he even was aware of the Balrog?

Finally, I'm not so sure about the Moria orcs serving Sauron in the sense of being under his direct command. Those who took part in the attack on the Fellowship at Parth Galen apparently only followed their own agenda (LotR Book III, The Uruk-Hai):

'We have come all the way from the Mines to kill, and avenge our folk. I wish to kill, and then go back north.'

That doesn't sound like they had any special orders concerning rings or halflings, and neither Uglúk nor Grishnákh seems to have thought them very reliable.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

The two of them probably were of roughly equal rank in the good old days under Morgoth,

I'm not so sure that the were of equal rank. Remember Sauron was Morgoth's Chief leutenant and (in his alternate idenity of Gorthmar) one of his most Sucessful generals. That likey put him rank-wise, on par with Gothmog (the Head Balrog, not the Nazgul) if not slightly higher. Durin's Bane isn't Gothmog, he/she/its is one of the lesser Balrogs. While you can speculate on how much differece there is in strength between an ordinary Balrog and Gothmog (a bit like speculating on how much stronger the WK is than an ordinary Nazgul) rank wise (from Morgoths army's standpoint) , Durin's Bane is likey far lower than Sauron.

Two other point, however come to mind which lean in favor of Sauron not being able to cow the Balrog if he so chose. One is the fact that, in terms of raw physical power Third age Sauron is probably much weaker than first age Sauron; he's lost so much in his continual defeat and returns. The Balrog on the other hand is probably roughly as strong as it was whne it first went under the mountain, if not as strong as it was in it's prime (it's had a long time to sleep and recover) Second Third age Sauron really doesn't move much (he goes from Dol Guldur to Barad Dur, but its not like we have a record of him doing anything on the trip so its more like a King or Emperor moving from his summer to his winter palace. All actual pysical "work" Sauron does is done through his servants and agents, like the Nazgul, who while capable do not, in an singe one of them (even the witch king) have the whole of thier masters power (if they did he could only have one of them by defintion) What I'm trying to get at is, if Sauron knew about the balrog and wanted to enslave it, it would probably require him to go to Moria in person and even then it might not be enough.

[Kuruharan]

Sauron might have been rather embarrassed in front of the balrog for a couple of reasons. The first is Sauron's failure and then desertion of Morgoth's cause in the First Age. The second is how much weaker Third Age Sauron had become. Thirdy, there was that business about Sauron claiming in the Third Age to be Melkor returned...which obviously wouldn't have taken the balrog in for a moment and might have made it rather angry.

The relationship between them may have been rather similar to that of Sauron and Shelob in a way. They were aware of each other but left each other alone...barring the occasional snack. The balrog does seem in a way to be working with the orcs to some extent and was certainly aware of the things they were up to...but he also seems more than a little disinterested in them. He didn't stir a finger to save them in the Battle of Azanulbizar but had the dwarves tried to enter Moria it probably would have been a very different story. To keep them out was probably the only reason he bothered to be at the gate at all that day.

I agree that he largely wanted to be left alone.

[Sardy]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

...after all, it spent all those centuries since the Dwarves woke it up doing little more than sitting on its... er... hands in Moria.

Actually, it was sitting on its wings...

[Boo Radley]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Why did the Watcher in the Water grab Frodo, of all the Fellowship? Did it just feel some attraction from the Ring...?

This is what I've always believed. The Watcher could sense the power of the Ring and was attracted to it. Likewise, the Balrog, instead of being awakened (Or made aware of the party) by Pippin's dropped rock, also might have sensed the Ring and as the Ring contained quite a bit of Sauron's power, might have thought Sauron himself had come to Moria.

[JeffF.]

I agree, the ring drew the orcs that wiped out Isildur's guard when he lost the ring near Gladden Fields, it drew the Watcher in the Water to Frodo out of the whole group and the orc chietain in Balin's tomb bypassed both Aragorn and Boromir to thrust at Frodo. I also think the Balrog was drawn out of hiding toward the power of the ring. To an evil force such as the Balrog it must have seemed irresistable.

Still, given Sauron's rank among Morgoth's minions as his second in command I think there was some possibility of him drawing the Balrog into his service. in Unfinished Tales Gandalf mentions that Sauron could have made great use of Smaug had Gandalf not contrived to have him slain and it seems to me Smaug and the Balrog were probably similar in power and evil.

[Nessa Telrunya]

Perhaps Sauron could have attempted to draw the Balrog into his service with promises of whatever forms of riches it may desire? Of course, this would only work if he had anything that a Balrog could possibly want-the chances are quite slim, for why would it want to do anything for Sauron?

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Boo Radley

This is what I've always believed. The Watcher could sense the power of the Ring and was attracted to it. Likewise, the Balrog, instead of being awakened (Or made aware of the party) by Pippin's dropped rock, also might have sensed the Ring and as the Ring contained quite a bit of Sauron's power, might have thought Sauron himself had come to Moria.

The Balrog may have also sensed the presence of Gandalf, another Maia.

[Nessa Telrunya]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

The Balrog may have also sensed the presence of Gandalf, another Maia.

Yes, I think that possibility has been greatly overlooked. Gandalf's presence would surely have been strong enough to at least alert the Balrog, and Pippin's moment of "great common sense" would have woken him, if he wasn't awake already.

[Boo Radley]

Originally Posted by Nessa Telrunya

Yes, I think that possibility has been greatly overlooked. Gandalf's presence would surely have been strong enough to at least alert the Balrog, and Pippin's moment of "great common sense" would have woken him, if he wasn't awake already.

Good point. I believe Gandalf even made a comment about announcing his presence.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I believe Gandalf even made a comment about announcing his presence.

My impression is that Gandalf's observation referred to lighting the wood on Caradhras (where it probably did not alert anyone to his presence).

[QUOTE]'If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them,'
he said. 'I have written Gandalf is here[ in signs that
all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin./QUOTE]

On the general topic here, one of PJ's movie errors was to picture
all evil as directly controlled by Sauron. It's far more complicated,
interesting, and realistic to have a number of autonomous forces,
for good and evil, with possible alliances. On the bad guy side
including Sauron, Shelob, Smaug, Caradhras, balrogs, and some orcs.

It is interesting to speculate on relative powers vof Durin's Bane vs.
Third Age (ringless) Sauron. And this is another reason for Sauron's
desire for the Ring. Even if Sauron took out Gondor, Rohan, and the elves
he'd still have major concerns handling balrogs, any remaining dragons, etc.
And it's one thing to gain military victories, another to govern the mass
of Middle Earth (of which Eriador and Rhovanion were only a fraction).

Ample room for the valar and Iluvatar to eventually engineer his downfall,
certainly without the Ring available for Sauron. The temptation (except for
the Nine) to seek their own power base would be enormous. Consider that
a Moria defended only by dwarves withstood Sauron throughout the Second
Age, how much more could a Moria defended by a balrog and his
minions do?

[JeffF.]

I think the Balrog could have done much to advance Sauron's military objectives. The three attacks by Dol Guldor & Moria orcs were repulsed but had the Balrog been there it may have been a different outcome. Even if Galadriel's power was too great unless Sauron himself came the Balrog leading Dol Guldor forces easily could have overcome the Beornings and Woodmen. Thranduil's elves also would have fallen. If the Balrog linked with the Easterlings attacking the Kingdom's of Dale and Erebor they would have overthrown all the North.

[Boo Radley]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

My impression is that Gandalf's observation referred to lighting the wood on Caradhras (where it probably did not alert anyone to his presence).

That's what I was referring to. And as for not alerting anyone to his presence, why do you say that? As far as I'm concerned, anyone (or thing) with any kind of ability to sense the power he used to light the fire would have known where he was.