Gildor's got a gun

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Good may be more devious than I've given it credit for.

It is! I was thinking about the 'honourable' way of doing things, and if good was honourable, Aragorn et Gandalf would have marched out their army to fight Sauron's army. Then I thought...well that's what they did! But....

That was just to get Sauron's army out, grab his attention, so two little buggers could pass through Mordor and put a hit on Sauron. Sneaky, nasty hobbitses and sneaky, nasty Aragornses!

[alatar]

Hobbits - Eru's silver bullets.

Someone brought up political assassination. What of 'emotional' assassination, as per Denethor? He was driven to despair, and when it became too much, he took a flying leap.

Could some on the other side be made ineffectual - despondent - in the same way? Aragorn taunted Sauron, and must have caused the maia some anxiety. Could he and, say, members of the White Council use the palantiri or other methods to neutralize Sauron and/or other threats?

Again, my larger question is why the 'good' did not seek to hamper and harass (with extreme prejudice) the evil? Like, in an odd way, could Galadriel have sent a betrothal request (between her and Sauron) back with one of the Nine (on its way back from Dale) just so she could turn him down when he got his hopes up?

[Hakon]

Hobbits are the James Bonds of Middle Earth.

I think Sauron would have attacked the Lothlorien instantly if Galadriel had done that. Yes what happened with Denethor is emotional assassination. You could say there was also an attempt with Theoden.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Hakon

I think Sauron would have attacked the Lothlorien instantly if Galadriel had done that.

I think that she could have messed with him a bit, as seems that he was always looking to catch her eye...

Yes what happened with Denethor is emotional assassination. You could say there was also an attempt with Theoden.

Agreed. I was wondering of the converse.

As Davem may have stated in another thread, after reading the Sil, the other side just *has* to know how it's all gonna go down. Maybe Elrond could have sent Sauron a his copy. Maybe that's how elvish spells work - they remind the evil ones that, despite their best efforts, it's still Eru's world.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by alatar

Like, in an odd way, could Galadriel have sent a betrothal request (between her and Sauron) back with one of the Nine (on its way back from Dale) just so she could turn him down when he got his hopes up?

What might Celeborn have said about this?

[Farael]

I would not call what Sauron did to Denethor and Saruman to Theoden "attempt at assasination" as a matter of fact JeffF hit the nail in the head, they were controling them

Now, being controled by the bad guys clearly has some negative side-effects on people's health, but both Sauron and Saruman were better served by their targets survival, which would have allowed to weaken the good guys further than by just killing the leader and having the next in line step up, as demoralizing as that may have been.

Of course, as far as assassinating their characters... well, that's more like it

[JeffF.]

The destruction of the ring was not an attempt on Sauron's life. As Gandalf describes at the Last Debate in RotK,"If he (Sauron) regains it (the ring)...his victory will be swift and complete, so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts. If it is destroyed than he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of his strength that was native to him in the beginning...and he will be maimed forever."

The attempt to destroy the ring was to render Sauron helpless rather than kill him.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

The destruction of the ring was not an attempt on Sauron's life. As Gandalf describes at the Last Debate in RotK,"If he (Sauron) regains it (the ring)...his victory will be swift and complete, so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts. If it is destroyed than he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of his strength that was native to him in the beginning...and he will be maimed forever."

The attempt to destroy the ring was to render Sauron helpless rather than kill him.

Well, Gandalf was likely well aware of Sauron's true nature as an angelic sprit, and he would have known they had no way to permanently 'kill' him.
All they could do was reduce him to a state in which he could never again threaten the peace of ME. They did so, and I think I can see that as an 'assassination' of sorts, when put into that perspective.

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

All they could do was reduce him to a state in which he could never again threaten the peace of ME. They did so, and I think I can see that as an 'assassination' of sorts, when put into that perspective.

1. to kill suddenly or secretively, esp. a politically prominent person; murder premeditatedly and treacherously.
2. to destroy or harm treacherously and viciously: to assassinate a person's character.

I would say it still counts as an assassination coming under point two of harming the person’s character. Surely if you destroyed a large portion of someone it would have a heavy effect on their character. Since the ring held the best part of his power and that was taken away from him a heavy hit would be dealt to Sauron leaving him as no longer a huge threat. You do not need to kill someone for it to be an assassination just harming Sauron as they did by destroying the ring would come under an assassination.

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

What might Celeborn have said about this?

I knew I should have listened to mother when she warned me about those Noldor women.

or

Oh great. First she's running around accepting strange jewelry from other men, and now she's proposing to the Dark Lord.

On a more serious note. The reason we don't hear about assassinations by the good guys (Fingolfin doesn't count anyways because he challanged Morgoth to a duel, not snuck into his house and stabbed him in the chest) might be that it doesn't fit the heroic ideal that Tolkien held his elves to.

You could argue that when Feanor threatened Fingolfin with a sword that he was threating assassination, which would fit with the popular view of assassinations as being politically motivated. That might just apply in the U.S. though, where we speak of the assassinations of J.F.K, Robert Kennedy, and Martin Luther King, Jr. but the murder of Versace and so on.

[Nessa Telrunya]

Well, what about the last march of the ents? It may not have been the most secretive events, but they in effect nipped Isengard "in the bud" Saruman wasn't killed then, but that would have been a blow to Sauron.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nessa Telrunya

Well, what about the last march of the ents? It may not have been the most secretive events, but they in effect nipped Isengard "in the bud" Saruman wasn't killed then, but that would have been a blow to Sauron.

It was an action against Saruman (and by proxy, Sauron) to be sure, but that event was not planned by the Wise, nor do I think that it could have been.
It was more of a lucky break for Rohan, precipitated by the 'chance' visit to Fangorn by a couple of wayward Hobbits.

[Boromir88]

I would not call what Sauron did to Denethor and Saruman to Theoden "attempt at assasination" as a matter of fact JeffF hit the nail in the head, they were controling them~Farael

Hmm...interesting, I'm not sure though if you could rule out assassination (or killing the King/Steward) as the end goal though for Sauron and Saruman. Both were trying to use pawns to further their own gains, but when those pawns became useless, they would be taken out.

At least The Mouth thinks so when he rides out to meet Aragorn and co. He seems to think he will be placed in a mighty position, as Saruman has proven untrustworthy and of no more use to Sauron, and in time Saruman was going to be dealt with. Would killing Saruman and inserting The Mouth as the new ruler of Isengard be assassination?

Unfinished Tales has some interesting stuff about Saruman, Grima, Theoden and Rohan. I don't know if you would want to count it as 'canon' but still interesting stuff considering this topic. Now, you are correct that what Saruman and Grima were doing to Theoden was about control, not killing him. In UT it says Grima was slipping Theoden subtle poisons to make his mind weaker, so if Saruman wanted him assassinated it could have been easy. However, there was a problem, and that is exactly what Farael points out, if Theoden is dead, you just place in Theodred...that doesn't help Saruman.

But here's where the UT gets interesting, because Saruman knew that Theodred and Eomer were going to be his biggest thorns for controlling Rohan. Theodred and Eomer did not like Grima one bit, and Grima's initial role was to become the King's favourite in a way, this meant Eomer and Theodred had to be out of the picture. Theodred winds up dead (in a battle, however the UT mentions this was of Saruman and Grima's making) and Eomer is jailed up. So, Farael, you are correct that Grima simply couldn't have assassinated Theoden, because of his opponents in Rohan, however the end goal was control of Rohan, which meant Theoden would have had to of been taken care of eventually. For Saruman and Grima it was a little more difficult as Theodred and Eomer were getting in the way. It's a good story.

I think the same can be said about Sauron and Denethor. Sauron was going to use Denethor in whatever way he could, until Denethor was no more use. Unfinished Tales has some interesting stuff too about Denethor. It states that Sauron had no servant with the mental 'will' capable of matching Saruman or Denethor. Denethor had a strong mind, so of course Sauron wanted to control it. Now Saruman eventually took to wanting the same thing as Sauron, Denethor always (until his death) opposed Sauron, foolish pride was Denethor's downfall. Sauron may have realized Denethor (nor would Gondor his most hated enemy) would never bow down to him, so he chose to break Denethor in other ways. Though, you can't really call it an assassination, for Denethor willingly challenged Sauron, as he lost all hope (after his sons were dead) and believed the only chance left for victory would be to challenge Sauron himself.