Gildor's got a gun
 

Frodo, Sam and Pip, leaving the Shire for Buckland, are pursued what what they call, "Black Riders." Not knowing what they are, though Frodo suspects, the three flee them as they can, and hide when possible while they make their way East.

But before they even leave the Shire, it appears that their luck may have run out, as a Black Rider approaches yet again, and Frodo starts listening to the Call of both the Riders and the Ring. Just as the Rider approaches...there's singing, and elves appear nearby.

The Black Rider flees, and the three hobbits make off to their (and our) first encounter with elves. We meet Gildor Inglorion, and though he is apprehensive at the mention of Black Riders, it seems that he and the other elves have a strength, a strength that would turn back the Black Riders.

Later we meet yet another, mayhap even more powerful, elf. Glorfindel (of Rivendell, not to be mistaken for his other namesake) faced down the Witch-King and cohorts both at the Battle of Fornost (Third Age 1975) and years later at the Fords of Bruinen.

Both of these elves seem capable of handling at least one of the Black Riders.

So why, in the history of Middle Earth, did the 'good' never contemplate assassinating any of the evil sides' more prominent minions? Sure, taking out Melkor or Sauron may be beyond the abilities of those present in Middle Earth, but what about the Witch-King? And, sure, we have Glorfindel's prophecy and all, but what of the others? Why didn't Elrond or Galadriel or Saruman put a 'hit' on Gothmog?

Merry's 'sword,' found in the barrow, was specially meant for just such a task. Someone - human - was thinking along these lines, and human-human assassination took place, and so the concept was there.

Think of the snickering that Arwen could have done at the Fords (think Peter Jackson's version for a moment) when only eight appeared on the other side of the river.

The fact that at least some of the remaining Elves, especially those of the Noldor, had the power to fend off or destroy any of Sauron's servants individually (if not Sauron himself) seems evident to me. However, we do not indeed see any use of such power by them, the most gifted of the Children still in mortal lands.
Gildor's excuse for himself and his group was basically that the affairs of Middle-earth were no longer their business. I suppose it does seem a bit of a cop-out, but I think it was essentially true. They were destined to give way to the Aftercomers. They knew it, and the Last Alliance was their last hurrah.
Glorfindel acted only as a guide for the last few miles to Rivendell. To be fair, he was facing all Nine by the time they reached the Ford, and Gandalf himself did not think Glorfindel and Aragorn combined had any chance against them all.
So why did they not take action against the greatest minions of Evil?
For one thing, there don't appear to be many Elves left who were capable of standing toe to toe with the likes of the Witch-king or the Mouth of Sauron. Gandalf said there were few, even in Rivendell, who could ride openly against the Nine, and if they weren't in Rivendell, that pretty much leaves only Celeborn and Galadriel.
After the Last Alliance it appears most of the High Elves were gone, either killed in battle or removed to the West. Those that were left, I think, knew that their time of action was past, and their place then was to give council and refuge such as they could to the enemies of Sauron who were taking the fight to him.
Also, as a point of feasibilty, how would Glorfindel or Gildor go about these assassinations?
The first step would be to locate their target, a pretty questionable business on its own (unless the Witch-king had a MySpace page with some useful photos and comments left by his buddies Shelob, Gothmog, and the Mouth of Sauron, whom they all call 'Moz' :D)
Even if they knew where one of the higher-ups was likely to be, the location would probably have been Mordor or Minas Morgul, and those don't seem like the sorts of places one could just walk into boldly with at most a handful of companions, and go searching about with abandon, even if they were on Manwë's Buddy List in the Blessed Realm thousands of years before.

One down, eight to go
 

We..eeell,

If I remember the last (but one-ish?) King of Gondor did his best to off the Witchking, which ended badly, and Glorfindel's prophecy may have put potential Nazgulicidal types off.

I guess for much of their existance they would be either a dark memory in the West, or busy running big Sauronic fortresses like Dol Guldur or Angmar, therefore only to be encountered after a victorious battle.

Gandalf seems to have had a go at Weathertop, but without any lasting effect on the Nazgul, though perhaps he was limited by the Maiar power-limitation-thing.

Okay, just so we're not limiting the discussion, we don't have to consider only the Nazgul or the Third Age. Was there ever an event where the 'good' side decided to put a hit (successful or not) on someone on the other side (human royal affairs not withstanding)?

Gandalf was able to infiltrate Dol Guldur - twice, I think. Couldn't someone have done the same and taken out 'someone?!?'

Why so passive/reactive?

Even to inconvenience Sauron now and then by removing his 'Mouth' would have been of some worth, if not just to annoy. :D

It's worth noting that Glorfindel was a rather exceptional Elf - a captain of Gondolin who had already slain a Balrog and who had been reincarnated and sent back to Middle-earth. His reincarnation, in particular, Tolkien seems to consider to have imparted him with a special power beyond that normally given to the Eldar (see the late Glorfindel essays in HoMe XII).

Gildor is certainly of lesser power than Glorfindel, but then his company obviously outnumbered the lone Nazgul. Add to this a few other considerations: Gildor and his companions were apparently Noldor, with the light of Aman in their eyes, rather than run of the mill, as it were, Sindar/Nandor/Avari; the Black Rider was far from Mordor and his power may have been diminished; the Black Rider was possibly trying for secrecy and may have wanted to avoid announcing his presence in that part of the world with a big battle against a company of Elves.

This doesn't undermine the premise of Alatar's question, but I think that, all things considered, the Nazgul probably were quite formidable opponents and there may have been few Elves or Men (or Women!) who were a match for them.

Fingolfin.

This doesn't have to be the 'James Bond Fan Club;' we don't have to utilize lone assassins but could have groups or posses. Elrond rightly so sent only Nine Walkers against the Nine Riders and the One Big Eye. More would not have necessarily achieved the goal and, as put, may have only aroused the might of Mordor.

What about a small band of Rohirrim putting the hit on Saruman - especially after the death of Theodred?

Well, since LOTR and in fact, the entire legendarium is based on what people knew, it could be that there were a few low-profile attacks that were just counted as "mysterious disappearances in the hands of the enemy" or something. There wouldn't be any survivors on the "good" side to record the events. We only hear of Fingolfin because of the special circumstances.

I don't think so. Gandalf's mission relied on stealth. If someone was found dead he would hhave had to deal with the entirety of Dol Guldur (I assume it was reasonably well-armed as a fortress), which is no mean feat, even for a Maia (especially one in a limited form).

The accuracy of elven arrows is legendary...at least to me. One long shot...one kill.

Why not an interdiction force, like Turin and his band, that harassed the enemy? Take that one step further, not just taking the low hanging fruit of casual encounters with orcs and ilk, but plan a small attack with the goal of elimination one or more individuals.

The larger question is why the elves and even men 'awaited' attack, except, like when the Númenóreans came ashore, are in force?

Power of the Light Elves
 

By this time not many of the Noldor who made the journey to Aman and saw the Light of the Trees would have been left. As Gandalf described Glorfindel those elves who saw that light had a power in the unseen world that Dark Elves did not. Most of the remaining Noldor would have been those born in Middle Earth and never saw the Light. As Glorfindel told Aragorn there were few even in Rivendell who could ride openly against the Nine.

Obviously assassination was not a tactic that would occur to the 'Good' but thinking back through the books it does not seem to be a tactic used by Morgoth or Sauron either. It is not the taking of the lives of those opposed to them that is their objective what they cannot tolerate is Free Will. Morgoth and Sauron must dominate everything and everyone and to do that they don't assassinate. Think of Hurin, captured after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, this most powerful warrior of men is twisted and corrupted rather than outright killed.

The Lord of the Nazgul could easily have killed Frodo with the thrust of his Morgul blade instead he wounds him in a way that will bring Frodo under his will. both sides kill in open battle and in duels (Fingolfin and Morgoth - elendil/Gil-galad and Sauron) when necessary but assassination is not a method for either side.

I doubt one arrow would be able to kill a Nazgul. The Nazgul normally stayed together in groups and were powerful enough on their own. As Gandalf put it few could ride against the nine. It is not like Elrond or Legolas could just walk up to a Nazgul and kill it.

Jeff sums it up pretty well. Sauron and Morgoth both share the same goal, to dominate all not to assassinate. Also an elf as an assassin seems really out of place. I don't think Tolkien would have even thought of anything close to that.

I am sorry if I missed it, but does anyone know how to go about slaying a nazgul? They lit them on fire shot them out of the sky and even drowned them and none of these truly put an end to them. Short of destroying the ring you can slay them with enchanted weaponry and do we even know if that actually killed the witch-king not just sending him into his spirit form?

Very carefully.

What did the rising waters at the Ford accomplish? I would ask the same question of Legolas's Galadrim bow on the Anduin?

Both incidents accomplished one thing only: destroying their steeds and forcing them to take the trouble to obtain new ones.

I know you didn't want to solely limit it to the 3rd age, and the Nazgul, but here is why I will limit any assassination attempt to the Witch-King and Sauron (you may argue the Nazgul - but there's 8 of them anyway).

The purpose of any assassination is to take out the leader, or an important figurehead, which will demoralize and send your enemy into disarray. It would be pretty useless, and ineffective to try and assasinate someone like Gothmog or the Mouth of Sauron. Gothmog was 2nd in command (behind the Witch-King), but bottomline is he was a lower-level officer, who cares if he dies...the army still would have the Witch-King (unless of course you assassinate the WK and Gothmog...:cool: ). But Gothmog is expendable. So, is the Mouth of Sauron, he may be the "Lieutenant of Barad-dur" but his death means nothing if Sauron is still alive. All the Mouth's purpose at the Black Gate was to serve as a decoy to spring Sauron's trap. He goes out, tries to demoralize his opponents by showing the Mithril shirt, and then runs away after a couple of insults. He is nothing more than Sauron's decoy, and as long as Sauron is still around, he can always find another "Mouth" to be a decoy.

Now the armies are clearly affected when Sauron (or well the Ring) and the Witch-King are destroyed, so those are the ones you would need to target for an assassination attempt. You may argue one of the other Nazgul, as they were also leaders to some degree, but it is made clear the Witch-King is their leader, and they are a lot stronger when the Witch-King is around - and of course we know what Sauron's death did to his army, they went nuts, fled, slew themselves or surrendered.

Trying to assassinate a lower level commander is useless, unless you take out the head hanchos, because the lower-level guys can always be replaced. I mean would you try to take out William Wallace or his lieutenant? Which will have a more devastating impact on the army?

So, why didn't they try to go after Sauron or the Wiki? Well, Sauron's pretty holed up and well fortified in his tower. He was not going to make the same mistake during the Last Alliance and place himself in a position to be killed (which is probably why he has a "Mouth" by the time he returns and starts rebuilding in Barad-dur). And I'm afraid that slaying the Witch-King may be harder than shooting him with an arrow.

When he and Gandalf faces off, even though I would argue that it's clear Gandalf is far more powerful than the Witch-King, I still don't think Gandalf could have killed him, because not everything in Middle-earth can be taken down with shear force or power. The Nazgul were bound to Sauron, and the Ring, as Gandalf tells Merry about why they were not killed by the flood, the Nazgul "rise and fall" with Sauron. How do we know Gandalf is probably correct...when the Ring is destroyed the remaining Nazgul go *poof*. (Mount Doom)

Now, there does seem to be a little caveat to the Witch-King and that are the Blades of the Westernesse, which the hobbits find in the Barrow. These blades were specially designed, and wound with spells to defeat the Witch-King, who was their mortal enemy. So, if there was an assassination attempt, I would guess you would have to use one of the Barrow blades - so maybe the Westernesse were planning an assassination. :D

Anyway, I wonder how many of these Westernesse blades there were, and who knew about them. The way we find out their effect on the Witch-King is Merry's stab, and Tolkien (as the author) tells us their history. But what characters in the story knew? When Frodo stabs the Witch-King and just gets a piece of his cloak, Aragorn says that's all his blade would have done, because all blades would perish that pierce the Witch-King (Flight to the Ford)...so Aragorn didn't know about the blades' special power. Would someone else?

Now of course this entire mention of the Barrow blades might be useless, considering The Witch-King was stabbed in the face by Eowyn's "normal" blade and hence he was killed, but that was only because the Witch-King was rendered useless after being stabbed by Merry's blade wound with spells, specially designed to be the "bane of Mordor." ;)

I have an interesting question though, what about Sauron's rather indirect assassination? And that is what about his hand in causing the death of Denethor? When Denethor was snooping around in the palantir, Sauron saw a perfect opportunity to weaken Gondor, his strongest enemy, by messing with Denethor's mind. Could that be called an assassination in a way?

And now for that most cliché of all openings...
 

The dictionary(.com) defines assassination as...

It definitely sounds like it would qualify under the destroy or harm treacherously and viciously...although the context kind of implies what we understand as character assassination, which isn't exactly the same thing.

Hmmm...but wasn't the Fellowship itself, in point of fact, a 'hit squad'? Destroy the Ring, you kill Sauron.

2. to destroy or harm treacherously and viciously: to assassinate a person's character.

Then that would mean king Théoden’s ordeal with Grima would also count as an assassination attempt by Saruman. It appears the leaders of men at that time were both under evil control so Sauron and Saruman had been using assassination tactics.


A good thought, the honourable fellowship was in fact a sneaky assassination squad to do the dirty on Sauron.

Good may be more devious than I've given it credit for.;)

It is! :cool: I was thinking about the 'honourable' way of doing things, and if good was honourable, Aragorn et Gandalf would have marched out their army to fight Sauron's army. Then I thought...well that's what they did! But....

That was just to get Sauron's army out, grab his attention, so two little buggers could pass through Mordor and put a hit on Sauron. Sneaky, nasty hobbitses and sneaky, nasty Aragornses! :p

Hobbits - Eru's silver bullets. :D

Someone brought up political assassination. What of 'emotional' assassination, as per Denethor? He was driven to despair, and when it became too much, he took a flying leap.

Could some on the other side be made ineffectual - despondent - in the same way? Aragorn taunted Sauron, and must have caused the maia some anxiety. Could he and, say, members of the White Council use the palantiri or other methods to neutralize Sauron and/or other threats?

Again, my larger question is why the 'good' did not seek to hamper and harass (with extreme prejudice) the evil? Like, in an odd way, could Galadriel have sent a betrothal request (between her and Sauron) back with one of the Nine (on its way back from Dale) just so she could turn him down when he got his hopes up?

Hobbits are the James Bonds of Middle Earth.

I think Sauron would have attacked the Lothlorien instantly if Galadriel had done that. Yes what happened with Denethor is emotional assassination. You could say there was also an attempt with Theoden.

I think that she could have messed with him a bit, as seems that he was always looking to catch her eye...;)

Agreed. I was wondering of the converse.

As Davem may have stated in another thread, after reading the Sil, the other side just *has* to know how it's all gonna go down. Maybe Elrond could have sent Sauron a his copy. Maybe that's how elvish spells work - they remind the evil ones that, despite their best efforts, it's still Eru's world.

What might Celeborn have said about this?

I would not call what Sauron did to Denethor and Saruman to Theoden "attempt at assasination" as a matter of fact JeffF hit the nail in the head, they were controling them

Now, being controled by the bad guys clearly has some negative side-effects on people's health, but both Sauron and Saruman were better served by their targets survival, which would have allowed to weaken the good guys further than by just killing the leader and having the next in line step up, as demoralizing as that may have been.

Of course, as far as assassinating their characters... well, that's more like it

no assassination of Sauron
 

The destruction of the ring was not an attempt on Sauron's life. As Gandalf describes at the Last Debate in RotK,"If he (Sauron) regains it (the ring)...his victory will be swift and complete, so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts. If it is destroyed than he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of his strength that was native to him in the beginning...and he will be maimed forever."

The attempt to destroy the ring was to render Sauron helpless rather than kill him.

Well, Gandalf was likely well aware of Sauron's true nature as an angelic sprit, and he would have known they had no way to permanently 'kill' him.
All they could do was reduce him to a state in which he could never again threaten the peace of ME. They did so, and I think I can see that as an 'assassination' of sorts, when put into that perspective.

1. to kill suddenly or secretively, esp. a politically prominent person; murder premeditatedly and treacherously.
2. to destroy or harm treacherously and viciously: to assassinate a person's character.

I would say it still counts as an assassination coming under point two of harming the person’s character. Surely if you destroyed a large portion of someone it would have a heavy effect on their character. Since the ring held the best part of his power and that was taken away from him a heavy hit would be dealt to Sauron leaving him as no longer a huge threat. You do not need to kill someone for it to be an assassination just harming Sauron as they did by destroying the ring would come under an assassination.

I knew I should have listened to mother when she warned me about those Noldor women.

or

Oh great. First she's running around accepting strange jewelry from other men, and now she's proposing to the Dark Lord.

On a more serious note. The reason we don't hear about assassinations by the good guys (Fingolfin doesn't count anyways because he challanged Morgoth to a duel, not snuck into his house and stabbed him in the chest) might be that it doesn't fit the heroic ideal that Tolkien held his elves to.

You could argue that when Feanor threatened Fingolfin with a sword that he was threating assassination, which would fit with the popular view of assassinations as being politically motivated. That might just apply in the U.S. though, where we speak of the assassinations of J.F.K, Robert Kennedy, and Martin Luther King, Jr. but the murder of Versace and so on.

Well, what about the last march of the ents? It may not have been the most secretive events, but they in effect nipped Isengard "in the bud" Saruman wasn't killed then, but that would have been a blow to Sauron.

It was an action against Saruman (and by proxy, Sauron) to be sure, but that event was not planned by the Wise, nor do I think that it could have been.
It was more of a lucky break for Rohan, precipitated by the 'chance' visit to Fangorn by a couple of wayward Hobbits.

Hmm...interesting, I'm not sure though if you could rule out assassination (or killing the King/Steward) as the end goal though for Sauron and Saruman. Both were trying to use pawns to further their own gains, but when those pawns became useless, they would be taken out.

At least The Mouth thinks so when he rides out to meet Aragorn and co. He seems to think he will be placed in a mighty position, as Saruman has proven untrustworthy and of no more use to Sauron, and in time Saruman was going to be dealt with. Would killing Saruman and inserting The Mouth as the new ruler of Isengard be assassination?

Unfinished Tales has some interesting stuff about Saruman, Grima, Theoden and Rohan. I don't know if you would want to count it as 'canon' but still interesting stuff considering this topic. Now, you are correct that what Saruman and Grima were doing to Theoden was about control, not killing him. In UT it says Grima was slipping Theoden subtle poisons to make his mind weaker, so if Saruman wanted him assassinated it could have been easy. However, there was a problem, and that is exactly what Farael points out, if Theoden is dead, you just place in Theodred...that doesn't help Saruman.

But here's where the UT gets interesting, because Saruman knew that Theodred and Eomer were going to be his biggest thorns for controlling Rohan. Theodred and Eomer did not like Grima one bit, and Grima's initial role was to become the King's favourite in a way, this meant Eomer and Theodred had to be out of the picture. Theodred winds up dead (in a battle, however the UT mentions this was of Saruman and Grima's making) and Eomer is jailed up. So, Farael, you are correct that Grima simply couldn't have assassinated Theoden, because of his opponents in Rohan, however the end goal was control of Rohan, which meant Theoden would have had to of been taken care of eventually. For Saruman and Grima it was a little more difficult as Theodred and Eomer were getting in the way. It's a good story. :D

I think the same can be said about Sauron and Denethor. Sauron was going to use Denethor in whatever way he could, until Denethor was no more use. Unfinished Tales has some interesting stuff too about Denethor. It states that Sauron had no servant with the mental 'will' capable of matching Saruman or Denethor. Denethor had a strong mind, so of course Sauron wanted to control it. Now Saruman eventually took to wanting the same thing as Sauron, Denethor always (until his death) opposed Sauron, foolish pride was Denethor's downfall. Sauron may have realized Denethor (nor would Gondor his most hated enemy) would never bow down to him, so he chose to break Denethor in other ways. Though, you can't really call it an assassination, for Denethor willingly challenged Sauron, as he lost all hope (after his sons were dead) and believed the only chance left for victory would be to challenge Sauron himself.

How much better would have Middle Earth been had assassination been not only attempted, but had been successful. But I guess Arda needs manure for growing the next generation...:rolleyes:

Think about it. Angband gets thrown down (or, if pits, get thrown up) at the cost of many lives, places and things. As great as the Army of the First Age was, Melkor was able to raise a force that was about equal in strength; hence all of the collateral damage. Sauron finally falls (temporarily) at the end of the Second Age, though the cost was incredible. The Last Alliance made their way readily into Mordor, it took them seven years to finally bring the battle to a close, and during the siege there were many needless deaths.

Once, however, the good side shows up in such force that Sauron does not give battle as he doesn't have a sufficiently equal force, as when Tar-Calion comes to fetch him. But the death tolls are brought back up to suitable values when Númenor sinks and the Army of Ar-Pharazôn drowns.

So many deaths.

Thankfully, in the Third Age, Gandalf et al come up with a plan of assassination (as noted above) that minimizes the number of deaths on the good side while taking out the lead actor in the bad role. Aragorn's army of 7,000 is laughable in terms of Middle Earth "Let's Start a New Age Already" numbers, as noted in RotK. And yet, because for once deaths are minimized (and still many people and things pass away forever), the world starts off on a better footing than in Age-cusps past.

So, in short, had the Valar or the Wise taken out Melkor/Sauron with one shot each, the world as we know it would be probably overrun with Elves and Men and whatnot.

But it's not. How convenient...;)