Battle of Dagorlad

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Who was it said that amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics?

General Omar Bradley said that, and it was still being taught at the US Infantry Officers' Basic Course when I attended back in 1992.

I've also heard a version which goes "Amateurs talk tactics, dilettantes talk strategy, and professionals talk logistics."

On that same subject, Hans Guderian also said, "Logistics is the ball and chain of armoured warfare." and Stalin was to have said, "Quantity has a quality all of its own."

Two others, more applicable to Sauron than the Alliance:

-"Russians, in the knowledge of inexhaustible supplies of manpower, are accustomed to accepting gigantic fatalities with comparative calm." (Barbara Tuchman)

-"A single death is a tragedy, a million is just a statistic." (Stalin)

[Rumil]

Hi WCH, agree that the majority of Ar Pharazon's force were lost in Aman, but the Black Numenorean colonists and the Faithful do seem to have been two very powerful detachments, in Middle Earth terms, though not comparable to the main force.

Like the quotes Andsigil, Stalin's could come directly from the Mouth!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, Elendil's flotilla amounted to 9 ships- even if they were gigantic by sail standards, that still amounts to at most a few thousand including women and children (and they had to make room for gigantic round black stones and things!). The intervening century would have permitted a population increase, but (a) Numenoreans multiplied rather slowly, in keeping with their long lives, and (b) there were, one must assume, very significant losses when Minas Ithil was taken.

To these must be added the Faithful colonists at Pelargir, although one doesn't get the impression that this was a very large population. In addition there was a house of the Faithful ruling Belfalas, but that may have meant only the Lord's family and household, with a native population. Likewise the Men of the White Mountain vales and Lebennin wouldn't count as Numenoreans, and probably were still at a much lower state of technology.

[JeffF.]

According to UT Lond Daer at the mouth tof the Greyflood river was also a port and colony of Numenor. Apparently not all the Numenoreans of Umbar became Black Numenoreans. There is about 100 years between the Fall of Numenor and the Last Alliance so there was time for a few generations to grow but most of the Army of Arnor and Gondor must have been made up of indigenous men who submitted to Numenorean rule.

There still needs to be some explanation of how the major cities of Minas Anor, Ossigliath, Minas Ithil, and Annuminas were made in addition to the great works at Aglarond and Orthanc. These hint at, even demand, that we believe there was a significant Numenorean population that could not be accomodated at Pelargir and Lond Daer. Though Tolkien hints at some mysterious method of contructing Orthanc and the outer wall of Minas Anor (AKA Minas Tirith) most of the contruction was 'normal' requiring much labor and manpower.

[JeffF.]

I agree with your opinion that the army of Elendil could not have been as great as the force that Ar Pharazon landed at Umbar but it is the joint force of Arnor's Army and Gil-Galad's host at Imladris that is "none greater in Middle Earth" since the breaking of Thangorodrim. Gid-Galad's Elves must have been the greater part of this great host. "Fairer and more splendid in arms" likely pertains to their armament. Since the downmfall of Numenor Elendil's mixed men could not have been as effective as a force of pure Numenoreans and so many of the Noldor who had made the journey of the Exhiles would have been killed in the great battles of the FA & SA's. Most of the surviving Noldor would have been Dark Elves without the power described to Glorfindel in Fellowship of the Ring so overall the Noldor would be less powerful regardless of how numerous they became or how well armed.

[JeffF.]

Re-reading the appropriate parts of the Simarillion, it says the Peoples of the coasts were related or of Elendil's folk hinting that there were many colonies besides Pelargir and Lond Daer.

There may have been a significant population of the Faithful in Middle Earth around the coasts that later became Gondor and SW Arnor.

[JeffF.]

Rumil,

Thanks for the link. I did enjoy the story. The concept of using The Three to lure Sauron out of Barad-dur is compelling. I was put off though by the large number of instances the author contradicts Tolkein canon. From my first reading (no doubt I'll find more as a re-read it): From UT Isildur's sons Aratan and Cyrion were holding Minas ithil during the siege of Barad-dur (so it must have been retaken since the Silmarillion states it was lost in Sauron's initial attack); Elendur and Meneldil accompanied their fathers and were at Dagorlad, Meneldil had no brother rather three sisters, Lothlorien was not yet ruled by Galadriel and Celeborn rather Amdir who led his army to Dagorlad. Thranduil was not in Greenwood but had accompanied his father Oropher with the army of Greenwood elves and was at Dagorlad, the author says that Sauron did not bother to sortie yet Tolkien states that he made 'many sorties' during the siege, Hobbits had not yet appeared in Middle Earth, Gil-galad was born in Hithlum so he is NOT older than Galadriel, the Nazgul appear to wear their rings when Sauron holds them (yet the author states later in the book that he does hold them - so what were the objects shining on the Nazgul's hands he described earlier?), Sauron was not last seen by Celembrimbor rather he was last seen by Elendil in Numenor before the downfall, the Numenoreans had few cavalry and few horses mostly non-Numenorean horse archers, the end of Isildur is much different from the version in UT though it is consistent with another contradictory statement made in LOTR.

I found the last combat to be anti-climactic. Fingolfin in his great duel with Morgoth wounded him seven times but the two great kings Gil-galad and Elendil are quickly overwhelmed without making a scratch on Sauron, not until he mistakes Gil-galad for being dead.

The author seems to have ignored the fact that elves who saw the Light of the Trees (Galadriel was one of these) have great power in the unseen world (as Gandalf describes Glorfindel in FotR). In the Third Age the Nazgul were dismayed by Glorfindel at the Ford of Rivendell "an Elf-lord revealed in his wrath." Though Gandalf says the Nazgul are but shadows of the power and terror they would have should Sauron regain the ring such elves, however few there may have been by the Last Combat, should have been a power the Nazgul would be challenged to overcome.

What I find MOST objectionable is the manner in which Isildur gains the ring. I've always envisioned it to be much like shown in the movie version with Isildur wielding the shards in desperation and fury after witnessing the death of Elendil and Gil-galad and cutting off the ring in the heat of battle, instead Isildur, one of the noblest of men cuts the ring finger off of Sauron's corpse after he is killed by Gil-galad acting as would a common orc.

My favorite scene was the battle of the Three vs. the Nine.

The web-site says that the book was corrected in the 2nd Edition to align itself with Tolkien canon so I'm hoping that the Word version I read is the 1st Edition.

Is there a thread where these things have been discussed?