Battle of Dagorlad - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Rumil · 05-25-2009, 11:35 AM

Hi JeffF,

absolutely excellent description of the campaign and the Battle of Dagorlad !!!

Who was it said that amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics? Reminds me of Napoleon's invasion of Russia in which enormous quantities of stores were prepared, but were found insufficient.

I agree that the 'all living things' comment must be partly metaphorical, otherwise I'd be most concerned by the rampaging flocks of Sauronic killer sheep and the perils of evil daffodils! Not 100% convinced by talk of rebel orcs, though might consider rebel trolls (after all Perry the Winkle's mate seemed pleasant enough

). Maybe it could be read as 'all free peoples', which also avoids the need for evil eagles and allied dragons. There might be giants on both sides and I agree the ents/huorns could be split, eg. Old Man Willow and his ilk. Interestingly no mention of any hobbits! The birds could be split also with crebain etc versus the thrushes and ravens in an aerial recce capacity.

I think the Black Numenoreans (the King's Men) may have made up a quite significant part of Sauron's forces, after all their main settlements were in Umbar and to the South, while the more northerly Numenorean outposts were mostly settled by the small proportion of the Faithful. Given that the army of Numenor had so over-awed Sauron & co earlier, I guess the Black Numenoreans would be very prominent (and probably took disproportionately large casualties, given their superior morale to orcs etc). Probably they would have had 'native contingents' of Haradrim etc subservient to their colonial masters.

I also think that there must have been a fairly large number of Beleriand veterans left with Gil-Galad, Cirdan and Elrond, possibly even a reasonable number of those that had seen the light of Aman. Lindon seems to have been a powerful kingdom during the Second Age, although weakened during the War of Sauron and the Elves to the point of needing Numenorean help.

On the Elven and Numenorean cavalry I'd imagine that they were fully accomplished in both horse-archery and melee tactics, able to do either as the situation demanded. Similar to Ancient cataphracts but not so heavily laden down with horse armour I'd guess. 'Of Men and Dwarves' might imply that the dwarves had human horse-archer allies, possibly the proto-eotheod?

Was impressed by your reconstruction of the battle. Key thing here is the lighting condition, trolls (v1.0) would be no use if it was sunny and orcs less effective than usual. Probably Dagorlad is close enough to Mordor for Sauron to use the dark-brown-ashy-cloud technique, though a bat-cloud is a possibility, if so then seen off by allied hawks and the like?

On Fan Fiction, you might be interested to read 'Isildur' by Brian Crawford

http://home.comcast.net/~crawford.b/...r/isildur.html

It's a fascinating take on the end of the Second Age but suffers from being written before CT released some of the key material. Though checking now I see an updated version is available as a paid download.

William Cloud Hicklin · 05-25-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Sauron’s forces also are implied to have evolved. Earlier in the SA his forces refused to face the Numenorean armament and at Dagorlad they did.

I think it's a safe assumption that the Dunedain Elendil and his sons could muster were nowhere near as numerous as the massive invasion force Ar-Pharazon landed at Umbar.

Andsigil · 05-25-2009, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumil

Who was it said that amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics?

General Omar Bradley said that, and it was still being taught at the US Infantry Officers' Basic Course when I attended back in 1992.

I've also heard a version which goes "Amateurs talk tactics, dilettantes talk strategy, and professionals talk logistics."

On that same subject, Hans Guderian also said, "Logistics is the ball and chain of armoured warfare." and Stalin was to have said, "Quantity has a quality all of its own."

Two others, more applicable to Sauron than the Alliance:

-"Russians, in the knowledge of inexhaustible supplies of manpower, are accustomed to accepting gigantic fatalities with comparative calm." (Barbara Tuchman)

-"A single death is a tragedy, a million is just a statistic." (Stalin)

Rumil · 05-25-2009, 02:43 PM

Hi WCH, agree that the majority of Ar Pharazon's force were lost in Aman, but the Black Numenorean colonists and the Faithful do seem to have been two very powerful detachments, in Middle Earth terms, though not comparable to the main force.

Like the quotes Andsigil, Stalin's could come directly from the Mouth!

William Cloud Hicklin · 05-26-2009, 07:41 AM

Well, Elendil's flotilla amounted to 9 ships- even if they were gigantic by sail standards, that still amounts to at most a few thousand including women and children (and they had to make room for gigantic round black stones and things!). The intervening century would have permitted a population increase, but (a) Numenoreans multiplied rather slowly, in keeping with their long lives, and (b) there were, one must assume, very significant losses when Minas Ithil was taken.

To these must be added the Faithful colonists at Pelargir, although one doesn't get the impression that this was a very large population. In addition there was a house of the Faithful ruling Belfalas, but that may have meant only the Lord's family and household, with a native population. Likewise the Men of the White Mountain vales and Lebennin wouldn't count as Numenoreans, and probably were still at a much lower state of technology.

JeffF. · 05-26-2009, 11:57 AM

According to UT Lond Daer at the mouth tof the Greyflood river was also a port and colony of Numenor. Apparently not all the Numenoreans of Umbar became Black Numenoreans. There is about 100 years between the Fall of Numenor and the Last Alliance so there was time for a few generations to grow but most of the Army of Arnor and Gondor must have been made up of indigenous men who submitted to Numenorean rule.

There still needs to be some explanation of how the major cities of Minas Anor, Ossigliath, Minas Ithil, and Annuminas were made in addition to the great works at Aglarond and Orthanc. These hint at, even demand, that we believe there was a significant Numenorean population that could not be accomodated at Pelargir and Lond Daer. Though Tolkien hints at some mysterious method of contructing Orthanc and the outer wall of Minas Anor (AKA Minas Tirith) most of the contruction was 'normal' requiring much labor and manpower.

JeffF. · 05-26-2009, 02:01 PM

I agree with your opinion that the army of Elendil could not have been as great as the force that Ar Pharazon landed at Umbar but it is the joint force of Arnor's Army and Gil-Galad's host at Imladris that is "none greater in Middle Earth" since the breaking of Thangorodrim. Gid-Galad's Elves must have been the greater part of this great host. "Fairer and more splendid in arms" likely pertains to their armament. Since the downmfall of Numenor Elendil's mixed men could not have been as effective as a force of pure Numenoreans and so many of the Noldor who had made the journey of the Exhiles would have been killed in the great battles of the FA & SA's. Most of the surviving Noldor would have been Dark Elves without the power described to Glorfindel in Fellowship of the Ring so overall the Noldor would be less powerful regardless of how numerous they became or how well armed.

JeffF. · 05-27-2009, 10:24 AM

Re-reading the appropriate parts of the Simarillion, it says the Peoples of the coasts were related or of Elendil's folk hinting that there were many colonies besides Pelargir and Lond Daer.

There may have been a significant population of the Faithful in Middle Earth around the coasts that later became Gondor and SW Arnor.

05-25-2009, 11:35 AM	#1
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Second Age -tastic!! Hi JeffF, absolutely excellent description of the campaign and the Battle of Dagorlad !!! Who was it said that amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics? Reminds me of Napoleon's invasion of Russia in which enormous quantities of stores were prepared, but were found insufficient. I agree that the 'all living things' comment must be partly metaphorical, otherwise I'd be most concerned by the rampaging flocks of Sauronic killer sheep and the perils of evil daffodils! Not 100% convinced by talk of rebel orcs, though might consider rebel trolls (after all Perry the Winkle's mate seemed pleasant enough ). Maybe it could be read as 'all free peoples', which also avoids the need for evil eagles and allied dragons. There might be giants on both sides and I agree the ents/huorns could be split, eg. Old Man Willow and his ilk. Interestingly no mention of any hobbits! The birds could be split also with crebain etc versus the thrushes and ravens in an aerial recce capacity. I think the Black Numenoreans (the King's Men) may have made up a quite significant part of Sauron's forces, after all their main settlements were in Umbar and to the South, while the more northerly Numenorean outposts were mostly settled by the small proportion of the Faithful. Given that the army of Numenor had so over-awed Sauron & co earlier, I guess the Black Numenoreans would be very prominent (and probably took disproportionately large casualties, given their superior morale to orcs etc). Probably they would have had 'native contingents' of Haradrim etc subservient to their colonial masters. I also think that there must have been a fairly large number of Beleriand veterans left with Gil-Galad, Cirdan and Elrond, possibly even a reasonable number of those that had seen the light of Aman. Lindon seems to have been a powerful kingdom during the Second Age, although weakened during the War of Sauron and the Elves to the point of needing Numenorean help. On the Elven and Numenorean cavalry I'd imagine that they were fully accomplished in both horse-archery and melee tactics, able to do either as the situation demanded. Similar to Ancient cataphracts but not so heavily laden down with horse armour I'd guess. 'Of Men and Dwarves' might imply that the dwarves had human horse-archer allies, possibly the proto-eotheod? Was impressed by your reconstruction of the battle. Key thing here is the lighting condition, trolls (v1.0) would be no use if it was sunny and orcs less effective than usual. Probably Dagorlad is close enough to Mordor for Sauron to use the dark-brown-ashy-cloud technique, though a bat-cloud is a possibility, if so then seen off by allied hawks and the like? On Fan Fiction, you might be interested to read 'Isildur' by Brian Crawford http://home.comcast.net/~crawford.b/...r/isildur.html It's a fascinating take on the end of the Second Age but suffers from being written before CT released some of the key material. Though checking now I see an updated version is available as a paid download. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion Last edited by Rumil; 05-25-2009 at 02:45 PM. Reason: more typos!

05-25-2009, 02:43 PM	#4
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Hi WCH, agree that the majority of Ar Pharazon's force were lost in Aman, but the Black Numenorean colonists and the Faithful do seem to have been two very powerful detachments, in Middle Earth terms, though not comparable to the main force. Like the quotes Andsigil, Stalin's could come directly from the Mouth! __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

05-26-2009, 07:41 AM	#5
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Well, Elendil's flotilla amounted to 9 ships- even if they were gigantic by sail standards, that still amounts to at most a few thousand including women and children (and they had to make room for gigantic round black stones and things!). The intervening century would have permitted a population increase, but (a) Numenoreans multiplied rather slowly, in keeping with their long lives, and (b) there were, one must assume, very significant losses when Minas Ithil was taken. To these must be added the Faithful colonists at Pelargir, although one doesn't get the impression that this was a very large population. In addition there was a house of the Faithful ruling Belfalas, but that may have meant only the Lord's family and household, with a native population. Likewise the Men of the White Mountain vales and Lebennin wouldn't count as Numenoreans, and probably were still at a much lower state of technology. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

05-26-2009, 11:57 AM	#6
JeffF. Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 70	Numenor Colonies According to UT Lond Daer at the mouth tof the Greyflood river was also a port and colony of Numenor. Apparently not all the Numenoreans of Umbar became Black Numenoreans. There is about 100 years between the Fall of Numenor and the Last Alliance so there was time for a few generations to grow but most of the Army of Arnor and Gondor must have been made up of indigenous men who submitted to Numenorean rule. There still needs to be some explanation of how the major cities of Minas Anor, Ossigliath, Minas Ithil, and Annuminas were made in addition to the great works at Aglarond and Orthanc. These hint at, even demand, that we believe there was a significant Numenorean population that could not be accomodated at Pelargir and Lond Daer. Though Tolkien hints at some mysterious method of contructing Orthanc and the outer wall of Minas Anor (AKA Minas Tirith) most of the contruction was 'normal' requiring much labor and manpower.

05-26-2009, 02:01 PM	#7
JeffF. Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 70	To William I agree with your opinion that the army of Elendil could not have been as great as the force that Ar Pharazon landed at Umbar but it is the joint force of Arnor's Army and Gil-Galad's host at Imladris that is "none greater in Middle Earth" since the breaking of Thangorodrim. Gid-Galad's Elves must have been the greater part of this great host. "Fairer and more splendid in arms" likely pertains to their armament. Since the downmfall of Numenor Elendil's mixed men could not have been as effective as a force of pure Numenoreans and so many of the Noldor who had made the journey of the Exhiles would have been killed in the great battles of the FA & SA's. Most of the surviving Noldor would have been Dark Elves without the power described to Glorfindel in Fellowship of the Ring so overall the Noldor would be less powerful regardless of how numerous they became or how well armed.

05-27-2009, 10:24 AM	#8
JeffF. Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 70	Numenor Colonies Re-reading the appropriate parts of the Simarillion, it says the Peoples of the coasts were related or of Elendil's folk hinting that there were many colonies besides Pelargir and Lond Daer. There may have been a significant population of the Faithful in Middle Earth around the coasts that later became Gondor and SW Arnor. __________________ JeffF(Fingolfin)