Tol-in-Gaurhoth LVII - Chess Game for Middle Earth: Game Thread - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Rikae · 02-23-2009, 01:26 PM

Ah, but another thought:

Not sure why Nog is bemoaning the bleakness of the scenario like that. After all, the wolves and werebear could very well kill each other, the WQ may be able to kill them, and the ranger's chances of stopping a kill go up every night.
I would say it's extremely unlikely that no baddies will die by night in the next 3 days and they will manage to kill two innocents per night... at any rate, there are simply too many variables to predict the state of things on day 5.

Maybe you're trying to rally people not to waste the lynch, which is reasonable enough, but painting the situation as nearly hopeless will just demoralize the village.

EDIT: X'd with Noggie.
A pretty far-fetched theory, and one that might help the evil side. I doubt Shasta would fail to make it clear, in that case, which role was responsible for which kill.

Nogrod · 02-23-2009, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikae

Maybe you're trying to rally people not to waste the lynch, which is reasonable enough, but painting the situation as nearly hopeless will just demoralize the village.

I was painting it as hopeless in an ironic tune. I'm not sure if I managed it - seemingly not. But the real point was, as you say, rallying people to get into this and not to think that as we have so many people around we can just look and see what happens.

Quote:

I doubt Shasta would fail to make it clear, in that case, which role was responsible for which kill.

I don't think that is anything like evident. It could well be that it is not revealed, at least openly.

Looking at the kills this far...

Quote:

Shasta - Ke3xe4, Night 1 (Moderator)
Gwathagor - d3xe4 (Lynched), Day 1 (White Pawn)
Eomer of the Rohirrim - Qd8xh4 (Killed), Night 2 (White Pawn)
Nerwen - Bc8xa6 (Killed), Night 2 (White Rook)

... might hint that last Night's kills were done by the baddies as the starting positions of the killers are Qd8 and Bc8 meaning the black opening side. But the lynch yesterDay was made from d3 meaning a pawn from d3 which exactly isn't anyone's starting position in a game of chess anyway - and neither is the killing of Shasta in the beginning (Ke3). So the initial position of a piece clearly is not the thing grants us firm knowledge of who the move-maker is as the possible position of the pieces in the board is not the opening set up anyway * (we don't even have all the pieces in the game to begin with), and if it's not, we have no way of telling what the board looks like and which piece is where.

Okay. Like I said, this is just an idea and we might need to revisit it on later Days if trying to figure out the reasoning behind the kills will give us problems but right now I'm not sure this merits too much pondering as it's immeadiate helpfulness toDay is doubtful.

EDIT: * and the killed piece seems to have been way out from it's initial position everytime someone has been killed...

Isabellkya · 02-23-2009, 02:29 PM

If Phantom was sweeping, and Nog was polishing - then I was staring off into space pretending to do whatever task I was supposed to be doing. xD

That is clever. At first look, the position notations seem to be close to gibberish to me.

I don't think Shasta could quite keep it perfectly accurate every time.
Since each piece can only move in a certain way, by technicality.
So, in theory - wouldn't he make it as accurate as possible. So in the killing blows, the move to take the piece was akin to that of its moving constraint?

X'd with Wilwa

Rikae · 02-23-2009, 02:31 PM

I took a closer look at Izzy...

Post #26 – Banter

#79 – Explaining Hansy

#89 – Jokes with tp, argues against discussing white queen's role:
“In reality, what good would it be to in-depthly theorize about what the White Queen may or may not be able to do?
We won't know (I assume) until the game is over. So, what kind of help is that going to lend us; when dealing with the evilies that we do know about?”

Probably more good than Izzy is doing at this point, I reckon.

#95 more joking with tp

#133
Doesn't want to vote randomly, although she otherwise would, because “it feels too much like bandwagoning” with so many others doing it. I don't like this. It could very easily mean “it looks too much like bandwagoning – those who did it are getting pressure, and I want to play it safe”
A lot of descriptions of what's been going on, with no substantial commentary.
Repeats my question about the cobbler, for no apparent reason. Also creepy – a bit “hey! Cobbler! Over here!”.
A lot of agreeing with (no offense, Gwath and Mnemi) pretty empty statements about looking for the wolves and bear... then goes after Mnemi for bringing it up:
“I have a question Mnemosyne. If dwelling too much on The White Queen would be baddie like behavior, or giving them ideas. Well what is bringing back up a topic from two pages ago? Wouldn't that be in the same realm?”
Says Hansy's ideas are not outlandish. I assume you mean the bit about cheating? Hmph.

#141 – Gwath is worrying her with short posts (note, this is after he has received his first vote and some suspicion). Backs off Mnemi. Now the really weird part:
instead of listing suspects and presumed innocents, she lists people who “stick out in” her mind. The reasons she gives are strange, too – me, Nog, Phantom, Fea and Sally for our usual behavior (is this an attempt to insinuate that we're suspicious because of our “usual behavior” without saying so, or what?) and Hansy, Mnemi and Gwath – only the latter two because she suspects them, though.

#146 More going after Gwath for short posts and banter.

#175 Explaining self to Nerwen

#196 Doesn't find Fea suspicious. Votes Gwath, saying:
“I am going to stick with my earlier doubts. It may be your style, which I can't blame you for. I had a brief chance to try and sift through your past games - and only had time to quickly go through your most recent one's first Day. You seemed to be a bit more aggressive in it, than you are here. What that says, not entirely sure. I'd rather vote for one I've got doubts on, than leave it to a toss of a die.”

#206 Vote count

#214 Minor comments

Conclusion: Bad. Wolf. Bad. Wolf.

EDIT: X'd with Wilwa and Izzy.

the phantom · 02-23-2009, 02:32 PM

*phew*

Polishing the game board is hard work. But it's looking nice and shiny now, so I can finally take a proper look back at the previous moves and give my take on the vote, why the kills were made, who Nerwen might've been hunting, etc.

Don't expect a post extremely soon though. I'm just now starting my reading.

Hansy · 02-23-2009, 02:39 PM

Okay, after reading Day 1 up to my last post, I think that, had I done it earlier, I would've probably voted for Sally. She's done basically the same as last game - besides that, instead of disappearing after the banter, she vaguely comments stuff that has been discussed already - thus adding nothing useful, maybe trying to look good. That's mostly post #73.

I think Nogrod is evil. I don't quite know why I feel that way; I'll look him again, trying to find it out.

The Fea/Nogrod case; she was seeing clues in her own post before Nogrod had said anything (excluding his pretty Alice quote - could that be taken as a hint itself? I have no idea). So, she was at least prone to think there was something hidden, Nogrod happened to answer her back, the character is called "Han Solo" itself, pretty convenient for an hint... but there's more to that. You'll notice Fea was herself making more and more questions, just like if she wanted to get more "evidence" against me. So, what is this about? I claim she plotted the whole thing from the beginning, to incriminate me. But why me? I should be just a silly newbie. The thing is, I was a last resort solution. Because she wanted to incriminate Lommy. But she isn't playing. So, she thought, why waste such a brilliant plan to break havoc in the game? And it happened.
Of course, all that tells us is that Fea is an evil mastermind. It says nothing about her alignment in this game - and I'm tempted to believe she's most probably innocent. But that leads us to another funny subject, "Save Fea!"

Most of you shall know this business better, but here's the pattern I noticed:

1. Fea acts suspiciously and puts herself in line for execution.
2. Fea's fan club panics and focus on a random lynch to save Fea from being executed.
3. The random lynchee turns out innocent. Now Fea may, or may not, be in even more danger.

So, it's not really efficient.

Making lists is a hard work. I discovered that while trying to make one, during the Night. Well, you can have this:

Likely innocent:
Lari, Fea, Rikae, Isa, Brinn (although she doesn't count because it seems she will always look innocent).

Likely evil:
Sally, Nog, Mira, Eonwe

I have no idea:
Durelin, Kath, TP, Nemo

----

that's all for now, going off for dinner.

(crossed since Nog's post 586330, probably there's a whole new page already)

Lariren Shadow · 02-23-2009, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikae

Lari[/B], what do you mean, you shouldn't defend your vote?

The last time I went and defended my vote it backfired horribly. And I also had to explain it so many times so I thought I would do it once and be done with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hansy

The Fea/Nogrod case; she was seeing clues in her own post before Nogrod had said anything (excluding his pretty Alice quote - could that be taken as a hint itself? I have no idea). So, she was at least prone to think there was something hidden, Nogrod happened to answer her back, the character is called "Han Solo" itself, pretty convenient for an hint... but there's more to that. You'll notice Fea was herself making more and more questions, just like if she wanted to get more "evidence" against me. So, what is this about? I claim she plotted the whole thing from the beginning, to incriminate me. But why me? I should be just a silly newbie. The thing is, I was a last resort solution. Because she wanted to incriminate Lommy. But she isn't playing. So, she thought, why waste such a brilliant plan to break havoc in the game? And it happened.
Of course, all that tells us is that Fea is an evil mastermind. It says nothing about her alignment in this game - and I'm tempted to believe she's most probably innocent. But that leads us to another funny subject, "Save Fea!"

I see where you're referring to but then looking at it again Fea also then says, paraphrased, "wow, that was really silly of me". So yes, for a post, in fact post 145 Fea was like "zomg Hansy...no wait I was on crack."

I'm not saying Fea couldn't have done this, but it just seems...highly unlikely. I can't really see her doing this. And your argument doesn't feel right to me. It seems really skiddish.

I think I might take a closer look at Hansy, or do so in a list that I will be writing.

Edit: x-posted with Nog.

Isabellkya · 02-23-2009, 03:46 PM

Very quickly.
To Nog, I believe we were told it was the Black Queen whom killed Eomer
If I am not mistaken, the d8 is the starting point of the Queen - and is a dark square. Also, if I am not mistaken - the Queens begin the game on a square of their own color.

So d8 is a dark square, meaning it was specified as the Black Queen whom killed Eomer.

Isabellkya · 02-23-2009, 04:07 PM

Which causes a bit of o.O in my head at the moment.

In post #258, you talked about the black opening side because of the starting positions notated next to the list of dead people.
Which seems to mean, that you know a thing or two about chess.
Yet in #264, you say that the table did not specify which Q it was, but as already said - you'd already pointed out that the pieces were on the black opening side.
So wouldn't that alone, tell you that it was the BQ responsible?
Why the.. waffling (best word which comes to mind at the moment.) ?

On the other hand -
In #258 you also said that the opening starting positions may not tell us anything because of the lynching and killing of Gwath and Shasta.
Here is a theory - couldn't those things, mainly such as lynchings - be for the sole purpose of the plot? So they are a part of the game, but not falsely incriminating someone? When I say falsely incriminating - let me elaborate. I don't think Shasta could or would in his notation attribute the lynchings to the WQ/BQ/WB/BB etc.. Wouldn't that in a sense, not make sense?

Drat. Got sidetracked with my rereading.

X'd with Shasta and Nog.

Durelin · 02-23-2009, 04:09 PM

Man, poor Gwath...how many early lynches is that for him?

I love how the two lynchee possibilities were Fea and Fea's secondary attacker rather than her initial attacker. I guess because people are still obsessed with the bandwagon concept? I don't know.

Brinniel, as far as I can tell, did a 180 from voting Fea and to voting Gwath at the last minute.

And I love how Hansy summed up the whole thing.

But you know what, I have no desire to talk about that much more, because it normally ends up to be just a distracting mess. But on the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing Fea gone at all. I get very sick of people saving one another at the loss of someone else simply because they like someone more. It only proves further that any sort of democratic system is a mindless popularity contest.

*shakes fist at the system*

Nogrod · 02-23-2009, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Durelin

And I love how Hansy summed up the whole thing.

But you know what, I have no desire to talk about that much more, because it normally ends up to be just a distracting mess. But on the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing Fea gone at all. I get very sick of people saving one another at the loss of someone else simply because they like someone more. It only proves further that any sort of democratic system is a mindless popularity contest.

Even if I disagree with a lot Hansy said in his post I do agree with this one. His summing up (points 1 and 2 especially) I agree wholeheartedly.

Okay guys, be sporty! Like I and my daughters (Lommy & Greenie) are when in a game. We ruthlessly advocate lynching each other if we think we have a reason - and that goes also in a larger scheme of things to Aganzir and Volo as well who are our RL friends. I mean the reason why Fea the cobbler was not lynched yesterDay was friendship and not the arguments in the game. And we could be rid of a cobbler now...

Don't get me wrong: in a situation where I have no clue about who to vote I tend to vote for someone I think might not contribute to the game so much or to save someone who contributes or I enjoy a lot playing with. Sure. But during some last games I have gotten a feeling there is a kind of mutual consensus between some people to just keep on helping some others because of the social factor even if there are good reasons to vote differently...

Yes, I like to see tp around for more than one day, and Boro and Rikae and Mac, and Brinn and Nerwen and... *add a long list here* because I think they are nice people whom I know a bit and I know they will contribute to the game eg. play it. But if there is reason to belive one of them is a baddie I do not hesitate to vote them. That's called playing the game.

Blah, one distraction too much for me... Going back to look at voting...

EDIT: Kudos for your last one Dury! Good general points!

Shastanis Althreduin · 02-23-2009, 03:58 PM

I'd like to point out that the chess notation denoting the lynches is for plot purposes only, as this particular setting doesn't lend itself well to lengthy plots.

The chess notation denoting kills during the night.... well.

Of course I'd also like to point out that I would have written a successful protection into the plot. Seemed like a rule clarification I should clear up.

the phantom · 02-23-2009, 04:11 PM

I'm part of the way through my reading. I've read the people with the fewest posts, including last Night's victims.

At this point I will say that the kills leave a rather empty trail. I can't see that either victim fingered anyone as innocent or guilty in a Seerish way (in a way that could be read decently after death), so the kills must have been based on more than White Bishop hunting. To make someone look bad, perhaps? Or was it based mostly upon safety- would leave no trail, or a faint wrong trail at the most, and the victim was considered unlikely to be, if the Rook, hunting you or your team mates.

As far as the Hunt is concerned, Nerwen didn't make it clear, did she? Maybe Rikae if I had to guess. Dunno...

Anyway, back to reading!

the phantom · 02-23-2009, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dur

I get very sick of people saving one another at the loss of someone else simply because they like someone more.

Just fyi, I certainly did not vote based upon this. Quite often I am happy to see Fea gone because I can never trust her and she never hesitates to kill me if she thinks it'll suit her ends. I made my save attempt because I truly believed I was getting a decent read on her, and after rereading her today I still think that she is not evil. I don't even suspect her of being Black Pawn.

Nogrod · 02-23-2009, 04:05 PM

Oh my... it's coming midnight here and I need to wake up at 6.30...

I suspect all of you, quite equally right now. And the only one I feel comfortable with my judgement is Fea who is a bad lynch for toDay as we need a killing-baddie and not a cobbler...

I think I need to count on your good judgement as my time for toDay runs out.

I try to wake up a bit earlier tomorrow so that I could see if I have a reason to retrack my vote but that remains to be seen if I'm able to do that. Sorry about the little input I managed toDay but polishing you guys takes time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isabell

To Nog, I believe we were told it was the Black Queen whom killed Eomer
If I am not mistaken, the d8 is the starting point of the Queen - and is a dark square. Also, if I am not mistaken - the Queens begin the game on a square of their own color.
So d8 is a dark square, meaning it was specified as the Black Queen whom killed Eomer.

I already discussed that in my post #258 and think it highly likely that was the case last Night - but not all the pieces have been in their starting positions so we should be aware of not reading them too self-evidently as it seems there is something like a pre-set starting situation there - like in Lewis Carroll's Through the looking glass... and anyone familiar with "chess-problems" knows, those positions can be anything (eg. positions one would never reach in an actual game).

Okay some pondering and a vote coming soon.

EDIT: X'd with Shasta... nice crosspost that was...

Nogrod · 02-23-2009, 03:21 PM

Have you seen Steve's (Eönwë's) post in the admin thread?

I suggest we leave him be at least toDay - and if he happens to be a baddie we scorn him for the rest of his life for free-riding in an immoral fashion...

*I just realised that I had left a few pieces unpolished... back soon*

Okay, then for something completely different.

I'm still uneasy with Fea. Then again I'm also thinking she's most probably the Black Pawn and thence I'm not too sure we should waste a lynch on her if we have any decent option of lynching an actual killer-baddie.

Let me make my point in short one more time as it seems many people just don't get it.

So she makes that little and totally unconnected remark in her voting post saying I have "a way of saying interesting things on Day One" which follows after her telling she's in no mood to be nice to newbies (as a reason for her vote for Hansy).

Then after being questioned why she said that, she admits that she made the remark because she thought I was the seer.

Now why would an innocent go on making such a statement if she had a feeling someone was the seer? She has never answered this - and I can't see why any decent innocent would act like that in the first place. Especially if she thought that I had the most valuable information of all eg. knowing the identity of the BQ which was part of her explanation?!!!

But what kind of bothers me the most right now is her post toDay about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fea

Quote:

Originally Posted by tp

suppose someone questioned why she mentioned Nog as support for her vote- how could she have explained that away in a manner that did not point a death-arrow at NogBishop?
Did you have a plan for that Fea?

In the event that I was right about him being Seer, and anybody noticed my comment but him, I intended to lie through omission about thinking he was the Seer, and would have amplified my faith in his ordinary intelligence and the organized mode of his rather linear thinking, which is often at cross purposes with my typically incoherent mind.

The question now becomes...
a) did she really have that thought out well before making the statement or is this invented afterwards (as her previous answer seemed to be in the crucial respects)?
b) and even more importantly: why did she make that original point about her thinking me to be the seer if she had to have millions of cover-plans for it if someone who shouldn't notice it would notice it? What was the rationale for it?

No innocent would say that aloud even if she thought that.

A cobbler might wish to point out a possible seer to the baddies. The motivation and the way she carries this through points neatly toward cobblerism.

A Black Queen wishing to point to the baddies who to kill / whom she will try to kill the coming Night then? In that case either the trio didn't get the hint or... and here we come to this possibility of the WQ being on action toNight... so maybe Fea really tried to kill me but the ranger covered me - and thus Eomer was killed by the WQ (it was a Q who took Eomer last Night but the table didn't tell us whether it was Black or White Queen who did it...)? In that case I'll be dead meat toMorrow. Baddies seldom leave an opportunity to kill someone without a danger of being distracted by the ranger unused if they have been frustrated once by her/him.

The likelihood of these scenarios is quite clear to me.

So Fea is up to no good but I can't see a believable scenario for her to be a member of the trio. The possibility of her being the BQ doesn't look too good either but is clearly better than the previous one. But her actions fit very nicely to her being the cobbler.

So she's a cobbler then. QED

Which means I should find someone else to vote for toDay as we can't afford yet another mislynch.

EDIT: Because of the extra polishing-job I seem to have X'd with a host of posts...

Feanor of the Peredhil · 02-23-2009, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now why would an innocent go on making such a statement if she had a feeling someone was the seer? She has never answered this - and I can't see why any decent innocent would act like that in the first place. Especially if she thought that I had the most valuable information of all eg. knowing the identity of the BQ which was part of her explanation?!!!

There is no point in hiding a role that I don't think you have. I also don't think you're the White Queen. Oh no! My bad, I shouldn't have said that aloud. Saying what I don't think is just downright dangerous for everybody involved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nog

a) did she really have that thought out well before making the statement or is this invented afterwards (as her previous answer seemed to be in the crucial respects)?

The problem with this is the suggestion that I think things out well in advance before saying them. I certainly considered the implications of posting a hint/query before I hit submit, and decided that it wasn't going to be a big deal if anybody noticed, because people drop hints and ask questions all the time; what I didn't expect was for you to respond the way you have. It makes me think you actually do have something to hide. Oh no, I shouldn't have said that either!

I intended to feel out the validity of my suspicion of your role, and to give an explanation for my vote of a newbie, when it's common practice to give noobs the benefit of the doubt on day one. I was in a foul mood and I noticed what you'd said. Why forgo a chance to kill off the Black Queen, and why wouldn't a player try to learn who the seer is? As I said, once you reacted the way you did, I knew no prudent seer would be that much of a blowhard (no offense, please, you know I adore you) in response to something so mundane.

I tire of this. You're being like a dog with a bone, Nog. Let it go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nog

I mean the reason why Fea the cobbler was not lynched yesterDay was friendship and not the arguments in the game. And we could be rid of a cobbler now...

First I'd like to say, "Except I'm not the cobbler."

Then I'd like to say, "I agree with the rest."

While I'm pleased I'm not dead, games are no fun if they are based on favoritism instead of on suspicion. The phantom is right when he says I would never hesitate to kill him if I thought it would suit my plans, and it's common knowledge that he's a buddy of mine. Please don't let your adoration of my wonderful self mess with the integrity of the beauty that is stabbing your closest internet pals in the back.

Now that I've finally caught up...

Seriously, that just took me hours.

Feanor of the Peredhil · 02-23-2009, 08:33 PM

Nog is being obsessive, but I don't think he is a wolf. I definitely don't think he's a seer.

The phantom seems more innocent than usual. I'm noticing what usually happens: he responds most quickly and most repeatedly when his irritation builds. He's usually most irritated as an ordo. While he might not be an ordo, I do not think that he is Black.

Kath, zomg that post was epic. Kath I think is reasonably innocent. I certainly don't intend to vote for her.

Mirandir seems utterly clueless. Sorry, dear. Please don't poison me Wednesday when you cook dinner for me while I'm in class. Innocent. Or at least, not radar-lighting evil.

Durelin is one I can never get a read on. After some experience being dead wrong about my reactions to her, I'm hesitant to say that I find her abrupt style alarming.

Isabellkya: I hadn't noticed any of the scary things that apparently everybody else thinks. Must be I'm busy noticing other things. I'll take people's word for it that she's a valid suspect, but I'm totally neutral on her.

Rikae joked with me Day One about dreams. I didn't take it seriously. I think she's White of some sort, though not necessarily Gifted.

Brinniel has a way of totally sneaking past my alarm system. I don't have any idea what she might be, but I'm not alarmed enough to want to vote for her.

Sally doesn't seem nearly hyper enough to be evil. Then again, maybe she took notes on the fact that I pegged her day one of the last game for that very thing. Still, no vote from me today.

Lari and I need to do our bio homework. My brain is totally running on empty. Usually my Mondays are so quiet... Anyway, Lari is on the lower end of the middle of my innocent/evil spectrum. The little I think about her is vaguely cautious in her direction.

Wilwa and I haven't played together in so long that I don't remember what I'd normally think. I think she's a white pawn, though I'm not sure.

Steve honestly should post more memorable things, since I'm doing this list from memory, and nothing is springing to mind.

Mnemo rings alarm bells, but I don't know why. I should look back over posts, but I don't know how much time I'll have before deadline. I didn't expect my afternoon to be so busy, and my Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursdays are a blitzkrieg of insanity. I'll try to look back and see why I'm unsure/suspicious of Mnemo before I vote, but I really don't know how functional I'll be, as I'm already exhausted.

Hansy: I'm now quite certain that Hansy isn't just an alias of the phantom (mostly because other people have told me that they know Hansy as a legitimate individual being). That being said, I wouldn't be adverse to repeating my vote of Hansy, for all that my reasoning no longer involves Nogrod.

I shall go think of chromosomes and suchlike now...

Edit: x'd with phantom, Izzy, and Mnemo

Isabellkya · 02-23-2009, 08:45 PM

I am getting to it Phantom and Mnemosyne.
I am only up to post #285 in actually reading. Skimming doesn't help.

Oh absolutely - it is just me thinking you a bit cold-hearted and blood thirsty, or oh absolutely you were being such?

Mnemosyne · 02-23-2009, 08:51 PM

Just reread Mira's posts.

Really the thing I hold against her the most is that "Well, I would have saved Fea voting for Gwath" post. Did Fea strike you as innocent, and if so, why? And was Gwath unknown, suspicious, or cannon fodder?

It really doesn't look that good for you, my dear; but then again, if you were a baddie, would you have frankly admitted that you were planning on voting for who is now a known innocent?

As usual I still have no Red Flag suspicions, if I have any suspicions at all (call it the fate of a lurker who read these games more for entertainment than intellectual stimulus). But for some strange reason Sally is still giving me odd feelings, even though I said I'd let her off the hook for toDay.

Then again, I've never read her playing in a game where I didn't know her role in advance. I'm not used to looking at her posts frankly.

I'll look over her stuff, but won't vote her unless I find something really really bad-looking (hah!).

Mira also continues to give me odd feelings, even though I don't know why: once again, I don't have nearly enough information to make a decision I'm satisfied with!

Steve I'm willing to wait until toMorrow to look at, when deo volente he'll be able to defend himself.

Hansy I think is innocent, but couldn't say why. Need to do some rereading there as well.

That's all for now!

Mnemosyne · 02-23-2009, 08:53 PM

@ Izzy

Oh, absolutely I was being such.

I look forward to your defense once you've read through the thread to your heart's content.

02-23-2009, 02:29 PM	#3
Isabellkya Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Amongst trees. Posts: 919	If Phantom was sweeping, and Nog was polishing - then I was staring off into space pretending to do whatever task I was supposed to be doing. xD That is clever. At first look, the position notations seem to be close to gibberish to me. I don't think Shasta could quite keep it perfectly accurate every time. Since each piece can only move in a certain way, by technicality. So, in theory - wouldn't he make it as accurate as possible. So in the killing blows, the move to take the piece was akin to that of its moving constraint? X'd with Wilwa __________________ But I was clinging to her like a homicidal monkey.

02-23-2009, 02:32 PM	#5
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	phew Polishing the game board is hard work. But it's looking nice and shiny now, so I can finally take a proper look back at the previous moves and give my take on the vote, why the kills were made, who Nerwen might've been hunting, etc. Don't expect a post extremely soon though. I'm just now starting my reading. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

02-23-2009, 02:39 PM	#6
Hansy Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 34	fragmented post Okay, after reading Day 1 up to my last post, I think that, had I done it earlier, I would've probably voted for Sally. She's done basically the same as last game - besides that, instead of disappearing after the banter, she vaguely comments stuff that has been discussed already - thus adding nothing useful, maybe trying to look good. That's mostly post #73. I think Nogrod is evil. I don't quite know why I feel that way; I'll look him again, trying to find it out. The Fea/Nogrod case; she was seeing clues in her own post before Nogrod had said anything (excluding his pretty Alice quote - could that be taken as a hint itself? I have no idea). So, she was at least prone to think there was something hidden, Nogrod happened to answer her back, the character is called "Han Solo" itself, pretty convenient for an hint... but there's more to that. You'll notice Fea was herself making more and more questions, just like if she wanted to get more "evidence" against me. So, what is this about? I claim she plotted the whole thing from the beginning, to incriminate me. But why me? I should be just a silly newbie. The thing is, I was a last resort solution. Because she wanted to incriminate Lommy. But she isn't playing. So, she thought, why waste such a brilliant plan to break havoc in the game? And it happened. Of course, all that tells us is that Fea is an evil mastermind. It says nothing about her alignment in this game - and I'm tempted to believe she's most probably innocent. But that leads us to another funny subject, "Save Fea!" Most of you shall know this business better, but here's the pattern I noticed: 1. Fea acts suspiciously and puts herself in line for execution. 2. Fea's fan club panics and focus on a random lynch to save Fea from being executed. 3. The random lynchee turns out innocent. Now Fea may, or may not, be in even more danger. So, it's not really efficient. Making lists is a hard work. I discovered that while trying to make one, during the Night. Well, you can have this: Likely innocent: Lari, Fea, Rikae, Isa, Brinn (although she doesn't count because it seems she will always look innocent). Likely evil: Sally, Nog, Mira, Eonwe I have no idea: Durelin, Kath, TP, Nemo ---- that's all for now, going off for dinner. (crossed since Nog's post 586330, probably there's a whole new page already)

02-23-2009, 03:58 PM	#12
Shastanis Althreduin Werewolf Psychic Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: In fire, water, earth, and air. But mostly water. Posts: 2,832	A voice from the abyss... I'd like to point out that the chess notation denoting the lynches is for plot purposes only, as this particular setting doesn't lend itself well to lengthy plots. The chess notation denoting kills during the night.... well. Of course I'd also like to point out that I would have written a successful protection into the plot. Seemed like a rule clarification I should clear up. __________________ Shasta– ... However, if he's innocent his famous clairvoyant powers must be taking the week off. Meanwhile, the Night-kills have been awfully effective– almost like we're dealing with a psychic wolf... - Nerwen, WW LXXV

02-23-2009, 08:33 PM	#18
Feanor of the Peredhil La Belle Dame sans Merci Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: perpetual uncertainty Posts: 5,517	Public-Appropriate Thoughts: Nog is being obsessive, but I don't think he is a wolf. I definitely don't think he's a seer. The phantom seems more innocent than usual. I'm noticing what usually happens: he responds most quickly and most repeatedly when his irritation builds. He's usually most irritated as an ordo. While he might not be an ordo, I do not think that he is Black. Kath, zomg that post was epic. Kath I think is reasonably innocent. I certainly don't intend to vote for her. Mirandir seems utterly clueless. Sorry, dear. Please don't poison me Wednesday when you cook dinner for me while I'm in class. Innocent. Or at least, not radar-lighting evil. Durelin is one I can never get a read on. After some experience being dead wrong about my reactions to her, I'm hesitant to say that I find her abrupt style alarming. Isabellkya: I hadn't noticed any of the scary things that apparently everybody else thinks. Must be I'm busy noticing other things. I'll take people's word for it that she's a valid suspect, but I'm totally neutral on her. Rikae joked with me Day One about dreams. I didn't take it seriously. I think she's White of some sort, though not necessarily Gifted. Brinniel has a way of totally sneaking past my alarm system. I don't have any idea what she might be, but I'm not alarmed enough to want to vote for her. Sally doesn't seem nearly hyper enough to be evil. Then again, maybe she took notes on the fact that I pegged her day one of the last game for that very thing. Still, no vote from me today. Lari and I need to do our bio homework. My brain is totally running on empty. Usually my Mondays are so quiet... Anyway, Lari is on the lower end of the middle of my innocent/evil spectrum. The little I think about her is vaguely cautious in her direction. Wilwa and I haven't played together in so long that I don't remember what I'd normally think. I think she's a white pawn, though I'm not sure. Steve honestly should post more memorable things, since I'm doing this list from memory, and nothing is springing to mind. Mnemo rings alarm bells, but I don't know why. I should look back over posts, but I don't know how much time I'll have before deadline. I didn't expect my afternoon to be so busy, and my Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursdays are a blitzkrieg of insanity. I'll try to look back and see why I'm unsure/suspicious of Mnemo before I vote, but I really don't know how functional I'll be, as I'm already exhausted. Hansy: I'm now quite certain that Hansy isn't just an alias of the phantom (mostly because other people have told me that they know Hansy as a legitimate individual being). That being said, I wouldn't be adverse to repeating my vote of Hansy, for all that my reasoning no longer involves Nogrod. I shall go think of chromosomes and suchlike now... Edit: x'd with phantom, Izzy, and Mnemo __________________ peace

02-23-2009, 01:26 PM	#1
Rikae Mellifluous Maia Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth Posts: 3,489	Ah, but another thought: Not sure why Nog is bemoaning the bleakness of the scenario like that. After all, the wolves and werebear could very well kill each other, the WQ may be able to kill them, and the ranger's chances of stopping a kill go up every night. I would say it's extremely unlikely that no baddies will die by night in the next 3 days and they will manage to kill two innocents per night... at any rate, there are simply too many variables to predict the state of things on day 5. Maybe you're trying to rally people not to waste the lynch, which is reasonable enough, but painting the situation as nearly hopeless will just demoralize the village. EDIT: X'd with Noggie. A pretty far-fetched theory, and one that might help the evil side. I doubt Shasta would fail to make it clear, in that case, which role was responsible for which kill.

02-23-2009, 02:31 PM	#4
Rikae Mellifluous Maia Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth Posts: 3,489	I took a closer look at Izzy... Post #26 – Banter #79 – Explaining Hansy #89 – Jokes with tp, argues against discussing white queen's role: “In reality, what good would it be to in-depthly theorize about what the White Queen may or may not be able to do? We won't know (I assume) until the game is over. So, what kind of help is that going to lend us; when dealing with the evilies that we do know about?” Probably more good than Izzy is doing at this point, I reckon. #95 more joking with tp #133 Doesn't want to vote randomly, although she otherwise would, because “it feels too much like bandwagoning” with so many others doing it. I don't like this. It could very easily mean “it looks too much like bandwagoning – those who did it are getting pressure, and I want to play it safe” A lot of descriptions of what's been going on, with no substantial commentary. Repeats my question about the cobbler, for no apparent reason. Also creepy – a bit “hey! Cobbler! Over here!”. A lot of agreeing with (no offense, Gwath and Mnemi) pretty empty statements about looking for the wolves and bear... then goes after Mnemi for bringing it up: “I have a question Mnemosyne. If dwelling too much on The White Queen would be baddie like behavior, or giving them ideas. Well what is bringing back up a topic from two pages ago? Wouldn't that be in the same realm?” Says Hansy's ideas are not outlandish. I assume you mean the bit about cheating? Hmph. #141 – Gwath is worrying her with short posts (note, this is after he has received his first vote and some suspicion). Backs off Mnemi. Now the really weird part: instead of listing suspects and presumed innocents, she lists people who “stick out in” her mind. The reasons she gives are strange, too – me, Nog, Phantom, Fea and Sally for our usual behavior (is this an attempt to insinuate that we're suspicious because of our “usual behavior” without saying so, or what?) and Hansy, Mnemi and Gwath – only the latter two because she suspects them, though. #146 More going after Gwath for short posts and banter. #175 Explaining self to Nerwen #196 Doesn't find Fea suspicious. Votes Gwath, saying: “I am going to stick with my earlier doubts. It may be your style, which I can't blame you for. I had a brief chance to try and sift through your past games - and only had time to quickly go through your most recent one's first Day. You seemed to be a bit more aggressive in it, than you are here. What that says, not entirely sure. I'd rather vote for one I've got doubts on, than leave it to a toss of a die.” #206 Vote count #214 Minor comments Conclusion: Bad. Wolf. Bad. Wolf. EDIT: X'd with Wilwa and Izzy.

02-23-2009, 03:46 PM	#8
Isabellkya Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Amongst trees. Posts: 919	Very quickly. To Nog, I believe we were told it was the Black Queen whom killed Eomer If I am not mistaken, the d8 is the starting point of the Queen - and is a dark square. Also, if I am not mistaken - the Queens begin the game on a square of their own color. So d8 is a dark square, meaning it was specified as the Black Queen whom killed Eomer. __________________ But I was clinging to her like a homicidal monkey.

02-23-2009, 04:07 PM	#9
Isabellkya Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Amongst trees. Posts: 919	Which causes a bit of o.O in my head at the moment. In post #258, you talked about the black opening side because of the starting positions notated next to the list of dead people. Which seems to mean, that you know a thing or two about chess. Yet in #264, you say that the table did not specify which Q it was, but as already said - you'd already pointed out that the pieces were on the black opening side. So wouldn't that alone, tell you that it was the BQ responsible? Why the.. waffling (best word which comes to mind at the moment.) ? On the other hand - In #258 you also said that the opening starting positions may not tell us anything because of the lynching and killing of Gwath and Shasta. Here is a theory - couldn't those things, mainly such as lynchings - be for the sole purpose of the plot? So they are a part of the game, but not falsely incriminating someone? When I say falsely incriminating - let me elaborate. I don't think Shasta could or would in his notation attribute the lynchings to the WQ/BQ/WB/BB etc.. Wouldn't that in a sense, not make sense? Drat. Got sidetracked with my rereading. X'd with Shasta and Nog. __________________ But I was clinging to her like a homicidal monkey.

02-23-2009, 04:09 PM	#10
Durelin Estelo dagnir, Melo ring Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,063	Man, poor Gwath...how many early lynches is that for him? I love how the two lynchee possibilities were Fea and Fea's secondary attacker rather than her initial attacker. I guess because people are still obsessed with the bandwagon concept? I don't know. Brinniel, as far as I can tell, did a 180 from voting Fea and to voting Gwath at the last minute. And I love how Hansy summed up the whole thing. But you know what, I have no desire to talk about that much more, because it normally ends up to be just a distracting mess. But on the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing Fea gone at all. I get very sick of people saving one another at the loss of someone else simply because they like someone more. It only proves further that any sort of democratic system is a mindless popularity contest. shakes fist at the system

02-23-2009, 04:11 PM	#13
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	I'm part of the way through my reading. I've read the people with the fewest posts, including last Night's victims. At this point I will say that the kills leave a rather empty trail. I can't see that either victim fingered anyone as innocent or guilty in a Seerish way (in a way that could be read decently after death), so the kills must have been based on more than White Bishop hunting. To make someone look bad, perhaps? Or was it based mostly upon safety- would leave no trail, or a faint wrong trail at the most, and the victim was considered unlikely to be, if the Rook, hunting you or your team mates. As far as the Hunt is concerned, Nerwen didn't make it clear, did she? Maybe Rikae if I had to guess. Dunno... Anyway, back to reading! __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

02-23-2009, 08:45 PM	#19
Isabellkya Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Amongst trees. Posts: 919	I am getting to it Phantom and Mnemosyne. I am only up to post #285 in actually reading. Skimming doesn't help. Oh absolutely - it is just me thinking you a bit cold-hearted and blood thirsty, or oh absolutely you were being such? __________________ But I was clinging to her like a homicidal monkey.

02-23-2009, 08:51 PM	#20
Mnemosyne Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Between the past and the future Posts: 1,159	Just reread Mira's posts. Really the thing I hold against her the most is that "Well, I would have saved Fea voting for Gwath" post. Did Fea strike you as innocent, and if so, why? And was Gwath unknown, suspicious, or cannon fodder? It really doesn't look that good for you, my dear; but then again, if you were a baddie, would you have frankly admitted that you were planning on voting for who is now a known innocent? As usual I still have no Red Flag suspicions, if I have any suspicions at all (call it the fate of a lurker who read these games more for entertainment than intellectual stimulus). But for some strange reason Sally is still giving me odd feelings, even though I said I'd let her off the hook for toDay. Then again, I've never read her playing in a game where I didn't know her role in advance. I'm not used to looking at her posts frankly. I'll look over her stuff, but won't vote her unless I find something really really bad-looking (hah!). Mira also continues to give me odd feelings, even though I don't know why: once again, I don't have nearly enough information to make a decision I'm satisfied with! Steve I'm willing to wait until toMorrow to look at, when deo volente he'll be able to defend himself. Hansy I think is innocent, but couldn't say why. Need to do some rereading there as well. That's all for now! __________________ Got corsets?

02-23-2009, 08:53 PM	#21
Mnemosyne Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Between the past and the future Posts: 1,159	@ Izzy Oh, absolutely I was being such. I look forward to your defense once you've read through the thread to your heart's content. __________________ Got corsets?