Absolute Good in Lord of the Rings

[Gollum the Great]

While I agree with most of what you said, Lal, I take issue with this.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

What I'm trying to say is that even Eru is not 'absolute Good', he is simply Eru and beyond all of that, beyond the ken of mere Men and Elves and even Valar.

From what I read of Eru (not from the Elves perspective), he was ME's God. Being God meant being "Goodness" itself, as a devout Catholic like Tolkien would hold.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Gollum the Great

While I agree with most of what you said, Lal, I take issue with this.



From what I read of Eru (not from the Elves perspective), he was ME's God. Being God meant being "Goodness" itself, as a devout Catholic like Tolkien would hold.

I don't know whether he was 'God' as in the Real World 'God', and if he was then there's a lot of interpretations of that, though he may well have been Tolkien's vision of what God was/is like. But I go from what's in the texts and in the Sil Eru doesn't state he is anything (in terms of good/bad or other judgements) other than he 'is'. And he also strikes me as like the vision of God (real world this time - I should be strict and distinguish them by using/omitting capital letters ) we see in the Book of Job, who demonstrates that he is beyond our notions of good/bad by doing some quite horrible things to Job - and thus emphasising both his omnipotence and his mystery.

That's what I mean by the concept of 'Goodness' not really applying to Eru.

[Gollum the Great]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

But I go from what's in the texts and in the Sil Eru doesn't state he is anything (in terms of good/bad or other judgements) other than he 'is'.

He doesn't have to state anything. He (as you so admirably put it) is.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Striking resemblance between Tolkien and St. John.

Tolkien I am positive does not go with Eru being evil, that's impossible. Evil is an absence (Catholic again) or perversion of the good. It's not a principle or substance. A man stands before a light. The result? A shadow. Therefore Eru cannot be evil. Neutral? A neutral supreme being would see no reason to create anything in the first place. Therefore Eru has to be good. He is Goodness itself, for if he were not goodness, where would the good come from? The Void?

we see in the Book of Job, who demonstrates that he (God) is beyond our notions of good/bad by doing some quite horrible things to Job - and thus emphasising both his omnipotence and his mystery.

That's what I mean by the concept of 'Goodness' not really applying to Eru.

If I remember rightly from the Bible, the devil requested permission to tempt Job, thus inducing him to blaspheme or call God unjust (I can't recall what exact sin it was). What did God use this for? A test. As the All-knowing God He already knew the measure of Job's faithfulness, but man with free will (still going Catholic) may make his own decisions and his virtues and vice only incline him to one side or the other. And what was this to Job?

The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away.

How was he to know what God had in mind? He knew God had his interests at heart, so why worry? He proved himself as true as mithril and ended up rewarded with more than he started with. An "evil" God would not help His servants in such a manner after a test. What happened to the Easterlings after they won the Nirnaeth for Morgoth? They were dumped in Hithlum with almost no booty.

[Morthoron]

As Tolkien stated there is nothing or no one 'absolutely evil' in his mythos, I would then have to conclude the opposite is also true -- that there is no 'absolute good'.

Free Will precludes Absolutes, and, conversely, the imposition of an Absolute on Free Will eliminates it. The terms are mutually exclusive.

[The Might]

Well, I don't know.

I mean, the thing is that Eru is the Christian God. He is not a fictional deity, Eru is but a fictional name for the Christian God that Tolkien too worshiped, used although in a fictional context. Tolkien defends his non-orthodox portrayal of God as Eru in his works in letter 154 to Mr. Peter Hastings saying:

We differ entirely about the nature of the relation of sub-creation to Creation. I should have said that liberation "from the channels the creator is known to have used already" is the fundamental function of "sub-creation", a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety [...] I am not a metaphysician; but I should have thought it a curious metaphysic — there is not one but many, indeed potentially innumerable ones — that declared the channels known (in such a finite corner as we have any inkling of) to have been used, are the only possible ones, or efficacious, or possibly acceptable to and by Him!

As such, Eru was for Tolkien THE Christian God and the use within the works was to him but a means of exploring the infinite possibilities of God, "a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety".


Now, the question is, is God for Catholics absolute good? To this question I await your answers since I am an agnostic with no idea about the so interesting teachings of the church. Especially in such philosophical matters I need some assistance, I believe Legate could be helpful, he is studying religion as far as I know. I might PM him about this.

Ok, so the thing is, if Catholics regard God as absolute good, then Eru is absolute good, since he is God, simple transitivity. If not, then not.

[Beregond]

I can't speak for Catholics per se but since the Christian God is a single God, the creator, then all things Good and Evil originated from him. But Evil can be described as that which goes against God, and by that standard you could say God is wholly not Evil - totally Good. Now you could argue semantics and technicalities all day but in the end I think God is beyond such general terms.

And beyond this thread, perhaps. I have the sneaking suspicion Cailín was hoping for more, shall we say, embodied characters?

Unfortunately when you leave out Eru I do not believe there are any absolute Good characters in The Lord of the Rings - plain and simple. If I had to choose the Good-est my gut instinct was Gandalf. Being a Maiar makes him Good no more than it does Sauron; however, he does succeed in his God-given mission when other Istari do not. He does not fall to temptation. Whether is love of Old Toby or his propensity to berate meddlers influence whether he is "Good" or not, who can say? Every single character has flaws - that is basic to life and Tolkien didn't forget it.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by The Might

Now, the question is, is God for Catholics absolute good? To this question I await your answers since I am an agnostic with no idea about the so interesting teachings of the church. Especially in such philosophical matters I need some assistance, I believe Legate could be helpful, he is studying religion as far as I know. I might PM him about this.

Ok, so the thing is, if Catholics regard God as absolute good, then Eru is absolute good, since he is God, simple transitivity. If not, then not.

I can't claim to speak to what all Catholics believe, but I can speak to what their dogma tells them they ought to. Gollum has it essentially correct to say God is all good, and I quote The Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Originally Posted by Paragraph 7, 385

God is infinitely good and all his works are good.

And, as the footnote there says, this is philosophically traceable back to St. Augustine, although that's standard Catholic (indeed, most Christian, I'd say, that have philosophic traditions) to say that God is all-good, in addition to all-powerful and all-knowing.

But I think this is getting off track somewhat. Certainly, it answers Cailín's question, but it's a very unnuanced and--I suspect--rather unhelpful. Here's her actual question:

Originally Posted by Cailín

Who, if anyone, in Lord of the Rings embodies absolute good?

Eru may be absolute good... but good luck finding a mention of him in the Lord of the Rings. Of course, I'm being bluntly unuseful myself in pointing that out, so let's try a better tack.

Gollum is right, of course, to say that Eru is the only being in Middle-earth who can be said to perfectly good if only because Tolkien isn't writing an allegory... but I think Cailín might settle for someone less perfect--even if it means someone less good. If we're looking for a useful essay example here, we need someone from the Lord of the Rings who epitomises, as best as possible, goodness.

Two characters leapt to my mind in the middle of writing the above.

Firstly, Sam.

Now, I know Sam isn't perfect. If we cease to harp on the perfection bit, I think it's pretty clear that Sam has more good characteristics than most characters in Middle-earth, and not least in his favour is Tolkien's comment that Sam is perhaps the real hero of the epic. More could be said here but it's late and focusing is not something I'm doing so well at at the moment.

Moving on, the other character that leapt to mind was Théoden... and I'll be honest, I'm not sure I OUGHT to be putting him in... but I'll throw it out anyway because it's late, I'm tired, and it'll make for good discussion if it doesn't get buried as a footnote. It seems to me that, AFTER his cure by Gandalf, Théoden is something of an idealised character: he's noble, he's kind, he's just, he's brave... and he dies a heroic death in battle. If there's any case to what my delusional, tired brain has come up with in presenting Théoden, this might have some interesting things to say about the value of self-sacrifice in Middle-earth.

[Cailín]

Some very interesting answers, thank you. I did not wish to go off-topic, because this is a Tolkien forum, but some of you might still be interested why I pose this question. The question actually arose from an article ("From Elfland to Hogwarts") I read by John Pennington, who finds fault with the Harry Potter series by comparing it to The Lord of the Rings, and some other famous fantasy works which he considers to be at the heart of fantasy (Chronicles of Narnia, for example). His main point is basically that Harry Potter is “fundamentally failed fantasy”. One of the reasons was most intriguing to me:

But the archetypal theme of good versus evil appears to be what the Potter books are about. Harry's education is cemented in this ultimate dichotomy that Tolkien, Lewis, and LeGuin privilege in their texts. So just what are the Harry Potter books about? (...) All is ripe for the good old-fashioned battle between good and evil. But that tone is quickly undercut--Harry is often more interested in being able to visit Hogsmeade and practice Quidditch than he is in fighting evil.

And later:

Finally, what ultimately is the role of the archetypal good versus evil dichotomy in the series? Voldemort represents the darkest of evil. But what of the good? Is there an overarching figure of good--a supreme being, for example, not necessarily God--whom Harry and his friends follow? They certainly are in a Christian universe, for they celebrate the Christmas season. If there are the Dark Arts, are there the Light or White Arts? Dumbledore is a Merlin and Gandalf figure, but Dumbledore does not achieve any grandeur; his name evokes bumble and bumbling, reminiscent of Tweedledee and Tweedledum, those foolish characters. There seems to be a good in the novel, but that goodness seems individual rather than archetypal. Thus the archetypal evilness in the Potter universe has no real antidote other than Harry and his friends (who do not seem to take that evil too seriously).

Since Rowling’s work is constantly contrasted with The Lord of the Rings, presumably Pennington did find the archetypes he was looking for in Tolkien’s writing. Perhaps he was indeed referring to Eru - though as Formendacil rightly points out, Eru is not really mentioned in The Lord of the Rings. He may be the source of goodness, as he is the source of everything, but like Tom Bombadil, the Ring seems to be beneath his concerns and Sauron’s far lesser evil is sufficiently balanced by characters such as Gandalf, who are not supreme archetypes. The goodness in Lord of the Rings seems to me quite individual and I think it would somehow detract from characters such as Sam and Frodo that their goodness is ultimately nothing more than some sort of divine infusion from above.

P.S. I’m not sure how many Potter fans / readers are present, but of course after the publication of Deathly Hallows it is quite clear that the Potter universe is indeed Christian. The article quoted above is from 2002, and was written before the fifth instalment in the series was published.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Gollum the Great

If I remember rightly from the Bible, the devil requested permission to tempt Job, thus inducing him to blaspheme or call God unjust (I can't recall what exact sin it was). What did God use this for? A test. As the All-knowing God He already knew the measure of Job's faithfulness, but man with free will (still going Catholic) may make his own decisions and his virtues and vice only incline him to one side or the other. And what was this to Job?

The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away.

God permits Satan to do these things to Job, it is ultimately God's work which was happening to him. Thus, God demonstrates his absolute freedom and omnipotence. And in doing so, finds out that Job's faith is such he accepts these horrible things.

Tolkien I am positive does not go with Eru being evil, that's impossible. Evil is an absence (Catholic again) or perversion of the good.

Of course Eru is not 'evil', but everything stems from him, every possibility, even Morgoth's works stem ultimately from Eru as Eru makes him and makes him so he is able to do these things. But of course even the things we see as 'evil' which happen in Arda are ultimately 'good' as they stem from Eru. And Eru even gives us a little explanation when he says

no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me

and

thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory

The best example to demonstrate how Melkor's works only serve to make Eru seem more glorious is good old snow. It seems odd at first to think that even the bad things stem ultimately from Eru, but they do. And that chimes in with the profound and quite difficult things said in Job.

Like Boro says,

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I would argue that Lewis (and Tolkien) were writers who were Christian, and obviously were influenced by their faith. But to say Tolkien created a Christian God in Eru, I think, is taking things a step too far.

Eru may be a reflection of Tolkien's own vision of God, that's something nobody can ever know is true or not, but is he 'the' God? Who knows? That depends on what your own experience or not is and mine is that there isn't just one version

So anyway...I think Cailin is probably right to concentrate on the main characters in Lord of the Rings itself! Even if her answer is a big old "No".

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

So anyway...I think Cailin is probably right to concentrate on the main characters in Lord of the Rings itself! Even if her answer is a big old "No".

Interesting that no one here has mentioned Galadriel. After all, we are given her temptation scene, just as we saw Gandalf refuse to be tempted by the Ring. I'm not saying that she's an example of "absolute good", but certainly in her wisdom, insight, tremendous hospitality, and prescient gifts she provides something very positive, helpful, and healing. She's the closest Tolkien gets to giving us a Goddess, verily an emissary of Light.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Interesting that no one here has mentioned Galadriel. After all, we are given her temptation scene, just as we saw Gandalf refuse to be tempted by the Ring. I'm not saying that she's an example of "absolute good", but certainly in her wisdom, insight, tremendous hospitality, and prescient gifts she provides something very positive, helpful, and healing. She's the closest Tolkien gets to giving us a Goddess, verily an emissary of Light.

Yet dear ol' Galady had her faults. She did, after all, ignore the Ban of Mandos, being more interested in personal gain, tempted as she was by the oratory of Feanor (even though she disliked him, she still fell for the bad boy image).

Regarding the circumlocutious debate concerning Eru and his omniscience, to me he/she/it was neither good or bad, and resembled Yahweh of the Torah, who could be quite despicable at times, butchering enemies of Israel wholesale (like Yahweh, Eru did slaughter innocent folks -- the old and the infant -- on Numenor).

Aside from the Eru discussion, I do not believe there was any character exhibiting an absolute goodness, because the definition of 'absolute good' would preclude items like killing (even in battle) and lying (even little white lies); therefore, even Gandalf or Sam, who have been mentioned by others, did have their foibles and faults.
I suppose it is necessary for this dialogue to define what is meant by 'absolute good'. Here are some extracts from our friends at Merriam-Webster:

ABSOLUTE:
free from imperfection
perfect, pure
outright , unmitigated
having no restriction, exception, or qualification
positive , unquestionable
fundamental, ultimate
perfectly embodying the nature of a thing <absolute justice>

GOOD:
virtuous, right , commendable
kind, benevolent
competent , skillful
loyal

There are no characters who match these definors on a consistent basis, and actually the word absolute goes beyond mere consistency, it means, rather, always exhibiting certain characteristics, and free from imperfections.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Regarding the circumlocutious debate concerning Eru and his omniscience, to me he/she/it was neither good or bad, and resembled Yahweh of the Torah, who could be quite despicable at times, butchering enemies of Israel wholesale (like Yahweh, Eru did slaughter innocent folks -- the old and the infant -- on Numenor).

Yet for ten righteous soles would God have spared Sadden and Gomorra, the same thing can be seen with Numenor in the flight of the faithful. The Numenorean's, apart from the three houses of the faithful, were under Sauron's influence and worshipped Melkor, sacrificing the him those that were still faithful. Should the seed of that Satanism be allowed to endure? Should Eru have spared Numenor on the fact that women and children still lived there? I doubt that would have been very wise, the pride of man had grown to great to be pardoned. The faithful were spared and the evil worshippers were destroyed.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Interesting that no one here has mentioned Galadriel. After all, we are given her temptation scene, just as we saw Gandalf refuse to be tempted by the Ring. I'm not saying that she's an example of "absolute good", but certainly in her wisdom, insight, tremendous hospitality, and prescient gifts she provides something very positive, helpful, and healing. She's the closest Tolkien gets to giving us a Goddess, verily an emissary of Light.

Yes but she's still got a naughty streak, which is what makes her so interesting. If she was just wise and beautiful and healing she'd be a little dull, however she is also power hungry and isolates herself and her people. Plus there are all those adoring male fans...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Yet dear ol' Galady had her faults. She did, after all, ignore the Ban of Mandos, being more interested in personal gain, tempted as she was by the oratory of Feanor (even though she disliked him, she still fell for the bad boy image).

The question here, though, pertains to LotR, and Tolkien went through enough niggling with the Galadriel character that it is possible to argue that the Silm Galadriel is but a distant relative of the Ring Galadriel. It's all a can of worms to try to unify some of the characters, such as Hobbit Gollem and Ring Gollem, even Hobbit Bilbo and Ring Bilbo, to say nothing of the tra la la la lally elves. And, anyway, my reply was not to suggest absolute goodness but . . .

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Yes but she's still got a naughty streak, which is what makes her so interesting. If she was just wise and beautiful and healing she'd be a little dull, however she is also power hungry and isolates herself and her people. Plus there are all those adoring male fans...

I don't think being naughty is what makes her interesting; it is her struggle within herself. It isn't evil that is interesting, but the struggle against it.

All of Tolkien's "good" characters struggle: it is this process which allows them to be good, not the complete absence of evil or the complete presence of good. Look at the long and torturous route Frodo follows and what happens to him on Mount Doom. Yet his struggle and sacrifice is what made it possible for events to unfold and thus, his struggle is not lost. Something valuable, life affirming and, well, good, came of his struggle. Something good was created.

Creation is an essential and paramount activity for Tolkien; in OFS, he equates it with the divine act. Actions which create cooperation, fellowship, community, the free will of individuals are what are good in Tolkien's world. So all of the main characters--Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, Merry, Pippin, Sam, Frodo, Bombadil--can have flaws and negative characteristics. But what marks them as good is the degree to which they resist things which destroy and break down and dominate. They resist self-satisfaction and their own willfulness, to greater or lesser degrees, for communal good.

They leave Middle-earth a better place.