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Old 01-02-2009, 02:07 PM   #1
Gollum the Great
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Originally Posted by Cailín View Post
Who, if anyone, in Lord of the Rings embodies absolute good?
I don't believe anyone in LOTR personified good, in and of itself. In ME Eru did, because Tolkien was no doubt following the Catholic principle (or whatever you call it) that God is goodness itself and therefore can have no flaw, no injustice, do no wrong, and that sort of thing.

In LOTR, there are several who come closest, but none who embody absolute good. I think Bombadil is about the closest you'll get, being innocent and incorruptible.
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Last edited by Gollum the Great; 01-02-2009 at 02:24 PM. Reason: Missed a word
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Old 01-02-2009, 02:20 PM   #2
Groin Redbeard
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Originally Posted by Gollum the Great View Post
I don't believe in LOTR personified good, in and of itself. In ME Eru did, because Tolkien was no doubt following the Catholic principle (or whatever you call it) that God is goodness itself and therefore can have no flaw, no injustice, do no wrong, and that sort of thing.
You hit the nail right on the head, Gollum. In order for Tolkien to personify good in a certain character his works would become allegorical, and Tolkien specifically said he detests allegories (I think I'll go and look that quote up for y'all).

Frodo comes to mind as the one who resists evil (being the Ring) the most in the story. Unlike other characters, he is almost always susceptible to the corruption of the Ring, but he always comes out on top, except for the final task of getting rid of the evil. Of course Frodo was effected by the Rings power, but he shows more spunk in resisting it 9/10 times. Even he can't be described as the personification of good, Sam certainly fills the gap. When Frodo falls Sam is there to help him back up, but when Sam's temper gets the better of himself, and he treats Gollum ill, Frodo is there to treat Gollum as an equal. I think those two are the closest you get to "good".
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:54 PM   #3
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I don't think any character embodies 'absolute good' in Lord of the Rings, for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, as Tolkien created Eru as creator of his secondary world, and as an Omnipotent god figure, it wouldn't be possible for any other character to be 'better' than Eru in terms of being 'absolute good'. If say Gandalf was an ambodiment of 'absolute good' then this would make him better than Eru and that wouldn't sit well with the existence of Eru.

Secondly, Tolkien states that he does not believe that 'absolute Evil' existed in his creation. While that does not exclude 'absolute Good' (unless you think it is Dualistic or something like that) it does mean that Tolkien created a Creator who could/would allow 'evil' to exist; in the Silmarillion it states that the works of Morgoth ultimately only served to make Eru's works better. What I'm trying to say is that even Eru is not 'absolute Good', he is simply Eru and beyond all of that, beyond the ken of mere Men and Elves and even Valar.

Thirdly, as we've discussed many times, our 'heroes' all have flaws. None of them are 'perfect' - even Gandalf is a grumpy old pipe-smoking hippy (), Frodo has his weakness, Tom Bombadil does not 'get involved' but hangs out in his woods singing trippy songs...etc...Lord of the Rings is a tale where there are no perfect saintly or muscle-bound 'heroes', but lots of very interesting people with failings just like us, doing their best.
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Old 01-02-2009, 05:20 PM   #4
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While I agree with most of what you said, Lal, I take issue with this.

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Originally Posted by Lalwendë View Post
What I'm trying to say is that even Eru is not 'absolute Good', he is simply Eru and beyond all of that, beyond the ken of mere Men and Elves and even Valar.
From what I read of Eru (not from the Elves perspective), he was ME's God. Being God meant being "Goodness" itself, as a devout Catholic like Tolkien would hold.
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Old 01-02-2009, 05:45 PM   #5
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While I agree with most of what you said, Lal, I take issue with this.



From what I read of Eru (not from the Elves perspective), he was ME's God. Being God meant being "Goodness" itself, as a devout Catholic like Tolkien would hold.
I don't know whether he was 'God' as in the Real World 'God', and if he was then there's a lot of interpretations of that, though he may well have been Tolkien's vision of what God was/is like. But I go from what's in the texts and in the Sil Eru doesn't state he is anything (in terms of good/bad or other judgements) other than he 'is'. And he also strikes me as like the vision of God (real world this time - I should be strict and distinguish them by using/omitting capital letters ) we see in the Book of Job, who demonstrates that he is beyond our notions of good/bad by doing some quite horrible things to Job - and thus emphasising both his omnipotence and his mystery.

That's what I mean by the concept of 'Goodness' not really applying to Eru.
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Old 01-02-2009, 06:32 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Lalwendë View Post
But I go from what's in the texts and in the Sil Eru doesn't state he is anything (in terms of good/bad or other judgements) other than he 'is'.
He doesn't have to state anything. He (as you so admirably put it) is.

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In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Striking resemblance between Tolkien and St. John.

Tolkien I am positive does not go with Eru being evil, that's impossible. Evil is an absence (Catholic again) or perversion of the good. It's not a principle or substance. A man stands before a light. The result? A shadow. Therefore Eru cannot be evil. Neutral? A neutral supreme being would see no reason to create anything in the first place. Therefore Eru has to be good. He is Goodness itself, for if he were not goodness, where would the good come from? The Void?

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we see in the Book of Job, who demonstrates that he (God) is beyond our notions of good/bad by doing some quite horrible things to Job - and thus emphasising both his omnipotence and his mystery.

That's what I mean by the concept of 'Goodness' not really applying to Eru.
If I remember rightly from the Bible, the devil requested permission to tempt Job, thus inducing him to blaspheme or call God unjust (I can't recall what exact sin it was). What did God use this for? A test. As the All-knowing God He already knew the measure of Job's faithfulness, but man with free will (still going Catholic) may make his own decisions and his virtues and vice only incline him to one side or the other. And what was this to Job?

The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away.

How was he to know what God had in mind? He knew God had his interests at heart, so why worry? He proved himself as true as mithril and ended up rewarded with more than he started with. An "evil" God would not help His servants in such a manner after a test. What happened to the Easterlings after they won the Nirnaeth for Morgoth? They were dumped in Hithlum with almost no booty.
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Old 01-02-2009, 08:57 PM   #7
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As Tolkien stated there is nothing or no one 'absolutely evil' in his mythos, I would then have to conclude the opposite is also true -- that there is no 'absolute good'.

Free Will precludes Absolutes, and, conversely, the imposition of an Absolute on Free Will eliminates it. The terms are mutually exclusive.
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Old 01-03-2009, 03:16 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Gollum the Great View Post
If I remember rightly from the Bible, the devil requested permission to tempt Job, thus inducing him to blaspheme or call God unjust (I can't recall what exact sin it was). What did God use this for? A test. As the All-knowing God He already knew the measure of Job's faithfulness, but man with free will (still going Catholic) may make his own decisions and his virtues and vice only incline him to one side or the other. And what was this to Job?

The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away.
God permits Satan to do these things to Job, it is ultimately God's work which was happening to him. Thus, God demonstrates his absolute freedom and omnipotence. And in doing so, finds out that Job's faith is such he accepts these horrible things.

Quote:
Tolkien I am positive does not go with Eru being evil, that's impossible. Evil is an absence (Catholic again) or perversion of the good.
Of course Eru is not 'evil', but everything stems from him, every possibility, even Morgoth's works stem ultimately from Eru as Eru makes him and makes him so he is able to do these things. But of course even the things we see as 'evil' which happen in Arda are ultimately 'good' as they stem from Eru. And Eru even gives us a little explanation when he says

Quote:
no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me
and

Quote:
thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory
The best example to demonstrate how Melkor's works only serve to make Eru seem more glorious is good old snow. It seems odd at first to think that even the bad things stem ultimately from Eru, but they do. And that chimes in with the profound and quite difficult things said in Job.

Like Boro says,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88
I would argue that Lewis (and Tolkien) were writers who were Christian, and obviously were influenced by their faith. But to say Tolkien created a Christian God in Eru, I think, is taking things a step too far.
Eru may be a reflection of Tolkien's own vision of God, that's something nobody can ever know is true or not, but is he 'the' God? Who knows? That depends on what your own experience or not is and mine is that there isn't just one version

So anyway...I think Cailin is probably right to concentrate on the main characters in Lord of the Rings itself! Even if her answer is a big old "No".
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