The Balrog vs The Witch King

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

It is clearly obvious that knobody can be certain of victory in any contest in Middle Earth.

Yes, that is true perhaps, as luck and fate have a place in Middle-earth. But we are speaking with specificity regarding two Maiar who never battled each other before, nor is there any textual basis to indicate that they ever would.

Again, Morgoth's throne was there for the taking on a number of occasions. Why did Sauron assume leadership without a fight? It's not like Tolkien never wrote about kinstrife and civil war before (like among the Elves, the Numenoreans, the Arnorions or Gondorions). Why didn't a Balrog attempt to forcibly evict him? I am sure there was no allegiance between the two based on devotion or love (I can't see a Balrog being all warm and sentimental), so if a Balrog was as powerful as Sauron, why then was there no confrontation?

Originally Posted by Morthoron

. . . so if a Balrog was as powerful as Sauron, why then was there no confrontation?

Because Sauron dared not try to evict the Balrog from his realm, no more than he did not with Shelob. The lesson of caution is well learned. The Balrog itself was not created with a view to dominate the world as a leader, but as a servant subdued to the will of Morgoth alone. I would compare this to the Witch King, soley commanded by the will of Sauron. Also, how many top draw powerful baddies could Tolkein accommodate in the LOTR as main characters? Certainly not both the Witch King and the Balrog, in addition to Sauron?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Because Sauron dared not try to evict the Balrog from his realm, no more than he did not with Shelob.

Please present textual evidence to indicate Sauron wanted to evict either the Balrog or Shelob, or that he was afraid of them for that matter; otherwise, your argument is baseless. In fact, in the Two Towers I recall that Sauron was certainly aware of Shelob, but left her alone as she was useful in guarding the pass at Cirith Ungol. He even sent her unwanted prisoners from time to time. That doesn't sound like an adversarial relationship to me.

Originally Posted by Mansun

The Balrog itself was not created with a view to dominate the world as a leader, but as a servant subdued to the will of Morgoth alone. I would compare this to the Witch King, soley commanded by the will of Sauron.

The Balrogs were not 'created' to be subservient as you mistakenly imply. They were Maiar just like Sauron, Gandalf and Saruman. One Balrog, Gothmog, led Morgoth's armies, so they had leadership capability.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

They were Maiar just like Sauron, Gandalf and Saruman. One Balrog, Gothmog, led Morgoth's armies, so they had leadership capability.

Gothmog is a different story. If we had a Gothmog vs. Sauron, I might be tempted to go for Gothmog as the winner.

[tom the eldest]

I found this old thread by coincidence,and i really interested in this type of thread.


The witch-king vs the balrog?witch-king get stomp.a maiar is far above a wraith,even the most powerful one.even if he use fellbeast,he still couldnt hurt the balrog.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

I found this old thread by coincidence,and i really interested in this type of thread.


The witch-king vs the balrog?witch-king get stomp.a maiar is far above a wraith,even the most powerful one.even if he use fellbeast,he still couldnt hurt the balrog.

The Balrog is more or less the equal of Gandalf the Grey, both being of the Maia order. All 9 Nazgul could not defeat Gandalf the Grey, so logically speaking the Balrog must be more powerful than all 9 Nazgul, and therefore more too than the Witch King. An enhanced (this demonic force does not imply Maiar-like power) Witch King cannot be more powerful than a weaker one plus 8 Nazgul at his side. So on all accounts, the Balrog is more powerful, and would defeat the Witch King in combat through formidable hellish spells that nearly destroyed Gandalf the Grey in Moria.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I believe there were just (5?) nazgul at Weathertop, and Gandalf did
have to eventually retreat. Therefore it seems problematic whether
one balrog could prevail against all 9 nazgul gathered together.