The Balrog vs The Witch King

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by obloquy

His reincarnation was relatively unique, but his power was not. Note that he is still never spoken of as one of the greatest of the Eldar. Gandalf was not overly impressed when he explained that Frodo had seen "an Elf lord revealed in his wrath." In any case, the distinction you've drawn between Glorfindel and "the Elves" is a false one: if Glorfindel had slain the Witch-King it would not be unacceptable to say "the Elves killed the Witch-King," so in this case it is also rightly said that the Witch-King fled from the Elves. He did flee specifically from Glorfindel, but Glorfindel was not the most powerful of the Eldar remaining.

I have to disagree with you - I think he was the most powerful of the Eldar remaining in ME. Actually, Gandalf says:

And here in Rivendell there live still some of [Sauron's] chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'
'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'
'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. -LOTR ,"Many meetings"

I think it is enough to single Glorfindel out among the Elves - as a Calaquende of great power. But Gandalf was still tight-lipped: he didn't explain that G had been reincarnated, neither did he explain his own Maia status.

Here is what is said about the reincarnated Elves in "Of rebirth and other dooms of those who go to Mandos:, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Morgoth's Ring:

The Eldar say that more than one re-birth is seldom recorded. But the reasons for this they do not fully know. Maybe, it is so ordered by the will of Eru; while the Re-born they say are stronger, having greater mastery of their bodies and being more patient of griefs

Also look at the notes following the Appendix to "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth" concerning reincarnated Elves:

The resurrection of the body (at least as far as Elves were concerned) was in a sense incorporeal. But while it could pass physical barriers at will, it could at will oppose a barrier to matter. If you touched a resurrected body you felt it. Or if it willed it could simply elude you - disappear. Its position in space was at will.

Well, it sounds like super-powers to me...

Edit : found another quote in Home 12: "Last Writings"- "Glorfindel"

For long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice..
An Elf who had once known Middle-earth and had fought in the long wars against Melkor would be an eminently suitable companion for Gandalf. We could then reasonably suppose that Glorfindel (possibly as one of a small party,(1) more probably as a sole companion) landed with Gandalf - Olorin about Third Age 1000. This supposition would indeed explain the air of special power and sanctity that surrounds Glorfindel - note how the Witch-king flies from him, although all others (such as King Earnur) however brave could not induce their horses to face him

And don't you get an impression (from reading only LOTR) that the WK feared Glorfindel more than he did Gandalf? The nazgul did attack the Grey Maia on Weathertop, the WK was preparing (albeit reluctantly) to fight him at the Gates, but the nazgul never challenged Glorfindel, even when he barred the road to them, hindering their mission.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I have to disagree with you - I think he was the most powerful of the Eldar remaining.

Actually Gandalf says:

"Lords of the Eldar"..."great power"..."one of the mighty of the Firstborn."

I recognize that he was one of the most powerful Elves in Middle-earth ("one of" perhaps quite a large pool of Elves), but I dispute particularly that he had climbed to the tier of Galadriel, who is explicitly stated to be one of the three greatest Eldar (multiple sources) and "the last remaining of the Great of the High Elves" (Letters); or that of Elrond, descendant of the greatest Elda Luthien and of Melian. Further, Tolkien says that if Galadriel's presumption that she could supplant Sauron as the master of the Ring is accurate, then so also could Gandalf and especially Elrond. Elrond and Glorfindel are just two "lords of the Eldar" of the "some" that Gandalf mentions in your quote.

Cirdan, too, was likely more powerful than Glorfindel, despite never having been to Aman: he was guardian of one of the Three, so we must assume he was capable of guarding it from Sauron and his servants. He was present at Sauron's defeat in the Second Age, at Gil-galad's side. He was also perhaps the oldest and wisest of the Elves remaining in Middle-earth, and both age and wisdom seem to play a role in spiritual power. Additionally, if some part of Glorfindel's enhancement owed to his "return to innocence" (mentioned below), Cirdan's status as a genuine Firstborn must be considered. Finally, it was said at the Council of Elrond that "what power still remains [in Middle-earth] lies [...] in Imladris, or with Cirdan at the Havens, or in Lorien." This suggests that Cirdan presided over other powerful individuals as well, and it can reasonably be supposed that this is also true of Galadriel.

Here is what is said about the reincarnated Elves in "Of rebirth and other dooms of those who go to Mandos:, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Morgoth's Ring:

You misread. "More than one rebirth" refers to one Elf being reborn more than once. Tolkien clarifies in his writings on Glorfindel that reincarnation was fairly common practice for Elves, since separation of fea from hroa was so unnatural to them. It was "the duty of the Valar" to restore slain Elves to incarnate life.

However, Glorfindel remains unique for a couple of reasons. First, he is the only reincarnated character, i.e. we do not become familiar with any other reincarnated Elves--though presumably many other Elves who were characters were also reincarnated but thought it a good opportunity to go into retirement. Second, before he was slain he had been banned from returning to Valinor. The ban was lifted for him specifically because his death purged him of the guilt for which the ban was imposed (should be enough, right?), and also because of the sacrificial and crucial nature of his death.

Also look at the notes following the Appendix to "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth" concerning reincarnated Elves:
Well, it sounds like super-powers to me...

And yet it was not Glorfindel's reincarnation that Gandalf said gave him 'great power against the seen and unseen.' It was simply by virtue of his having dwelt in the Blessed Realm. Gandalf also clearly does not consider Glorfindel unique when explaining this to Frodo: "in Rivendell live some of his chief foes [...] lords of the Eldar"; "they do not fear the Ringwraiths."

And don't you get an impression (from reading only LOTR) that the WK feared Glorfindel more than he did Gandalf? The nazgul did attack the Grey Maia on Weathertop, the WK was preparing (albeit reluctantly) to fight him at the Gates, but the nazgul never challenged Glorfindel, even when he barred the road to them, hindering their mission.

You might be right about who the Witch-King feared more, but there's no reason to suppose WK ever perceived Gandalf's true power or nature. The Witch-King's perception has no bearing on the truth, which is that Gandalf was the single most powerful being in Middle-earth during the Third Age.

Edit : found another quote in Home 12: "Last Writings"- "Glorfindel"

I'm glad you added this because it reminded me of a point I forgot to include in this post. Two paragraphs after the text you quote, Tolkien explains that for Manwe to have devised a special means of transporting Glorfindel from Aman to Middle-earth (necessary because of the removal of Aman from "the Circles of the World"), and to have sought exception to Iluvatar's ordinance that no one was to return from Aman, was "improbable and would make Glorfindel of greater power and importance than seems fitting." Tellingly, exactly such an exception was made in order to send Gandalf to aid Middle-earth in the Third Age.

[Gordis]

obloquy - I will not argue with you about the relative powers of Galadriel/Elrond/Cirdan vs. Glofindel, or especially about their greatness. It is all very delicate. I agree the first three were greater than Glorfindel, maybe also wiser. I only wished to point out that Glorfindel was both a Calaquende (not the most powerful of them, no) and a reincarnated being - unique in ME, as far as we know. I guess that would double his powers at least in the World of Shadow, his power against the Nazgul specifically.

For instance, Cirdan may be more powerful than Glorfindel and would best him in a fight (if such a silly thing were even possible) but not being a Calaquende, Cirdan would likely be at a disadvantage when dealing with the nazgul, while Glorfindel would have double advantages. That is what I was trying to say.

Originally Posted by obloquy

And yet it was not Glorfindel's reincarnation that Gandalf said gave him 'great power against the seen and unseen.' It was simply by virtue of his having dwelt in the Blessed Realm. Gandalf also clearly does not consider Glorfindel unique when explaining this to Frodo: "in Rivendell live some of his chief foes [...] lords of the Eldar"; "they do not fear the Ringwraiths."

Right - in LOTR it is clear that any Calaquende is a threat to the nazgul. Yet, in later writings Tolkien has thought of additional reasons that would make Glorfindel so unique vs. the nazgul.

Originally Posted by obloquy

You might be right about who the Witch-King feared more, but there's no reason to suppose WK ever perceived Gandalf's true power or nature. The Witch-King's perception has no bearing on the truth, which is that Gandalf was the single most powerful being in Middle-earth during the Third Age.

I guess Gandalf the Grey himself would have said that Saruman was more powerful and Gandalf the White did say that Sauron "was mightier still".

As to the Witch-King, Gandalf said: "...my heart sank. For even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain. A great king and sorcerer he was of old, and now he wields a deadly fear. "- LOTR
The Witch-King himself had a good idea of Gandalf's powers:

[The Witch-king] is both pleased and puzzled. For a while he had been in great fear, thinking that by some means Gandalf had got possession of the Ring and was now the Bearer; but as Gandalf passes he is aware that Gandalf has not got the Ring. What is he pursuing? He himself must be after the escaping Bearer; and it must therefore somehow have gone on far ahead. But Gandalf is a great power and enemy. He must be dealt with, and yet that needs great force. - Hunt for the Ring RC p.167

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

obloquy -

As to the Witch-King, Gandalf said: "...my heart sank. For even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain. A great king and sorcerer he was of old, and now he wields a deadly fear. "- LOTR
:

The quote would suggest to me that Gandalf is worried about the effect of the WK gathered together with the other of the Nine on the mortals out there, and thus their impact on the battle. I doubt that Gandalf personally was afraid, since like Glorfindel (as cited in The Fellowship of the Ring), the power of the dead has little effect on those who walk in both worlds (the living and the dead). Gandalf explicitly says this as a response to Frodo's comment about how Glorfindel was able to drive the Nazgul into the river at Rivendell...

[Gordis]

CSteefel, the quote above was taken from the Council of Elrond - Gandalf's tale about his feelings after he met Radagast in summer 3018. At this point there was no battle to worry about - yet. The two wizards (Gandalf and Radagast) were on their own, and Gandalf decided to go seek Saruman's counsel - how to "drive back" the Nine.

"Even if you set out from this spot, you will hardly reach [Saruman] before the Nine discover the land that they seek. I myself shall turn back at once." And with that [Radagast] mounted [...] and rode off as if the Nine were after him.

Now consider this: there are 2 Maiar. They have to oppose the Nine coming in their direction. But they don't even try to do this by force, two against the Nine. Radagast is plainly terrified of the Nazgul. Being a Maia is not such a great advantage in itself, it seems...

[Boromir88]

Gordis, but that doesn't necessarily mean The Witch-King knew Gandalf's nature, and knew his full power. Because even though if Gandalf is sent back with enhanced powers, he still keeps them veiled.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Gordis, but that doesn't necessarily mean The Witch-King knew Gandalf's nature, and knew his full power. Because even though if Gandalf is sent back with enhanced powers, he still keeps them veiled.

I didn't try to imply that the WK was aware of Gandalf's death, resurrection and his "upgrade" to White Wizard. But the quote from RC says that the WK, already while hunting the Ring near Weathertop, did know that G. the Grey was a great power. Most likely they had occasions to meet before (in Angmar?)
And what being could make a nazgul pause? Calaquendi and Maiar - or something like Tom B. (Also pretty girls, in the Witch-King's case ). I think the nazgul were very good at recognizing incarnate Maiar - hadn't they watched Sauron for an Age?

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I only wished to point out that Glorfindel was both a Calaquende (not the most powerful of them, no) and a reincarnated being - unique in ME, as far as we know.

Well, you did say

I have to disagree with you - I think [Glorfindel] was the most powerful of the Eldar remaining in ME.

I guess that would double his powers at least in the World of Shadow, his power against the Nazgul specifically.

Double? Care to share the formula you used to calculate that? I disagree with the interpretation of the "world of shadow" as a literal realm where a person might be amplified or diminished independent of his "world of direct sunlight" counterpart. It is rather a modified perception of the ordinary, unified world, in which it is possible to see the spiritual power that is ordinarily veiled by corporeal forms. When Frodo puts on the Ring, he does not transport to this other world since he still occupies physical space in the ordinary world despite his invisibility there. (The state that The Ring confers is evidently different than the state of the Nazgul since Ringbearers are made invisible clothing and all, but the Nazgul can put something on to become visible. Still, the Nazgul must also occupy physical space rather than being true disembodied spirits since they are capable of wearing clothing and carrying weapons.) What changes, then, is Frodo's perception of the world, and in some cases what he sees may even be figurative, as in his vision of the searching Eye.

For instance, Cirdan may be more powerful than Glorfindel and would best him in a fight (if such a silly thing were even possible) but not being a Calaquende, Cirdan would likely be at a disadvantage when dealing with the nazgul, while Glorfindel would have double advantages. That is what I was trying to say.

Then why isn't Glorfindel guardian of Narya? Who is Sauron likely to send to retrieve it, if he were to discover its location? Nazgul, right?

Right - in LOTR it is clear that any Calaquende is a threat to the nazgul. Yet, in later writings Tolkien has thought of additional reasons that would make Glorfindel so unique vs. the nazgul.

Again, Gandalf does not seem to consider Glorfindel unique, but just "one of" the Elf lords present in Rivendell.

I guess Gandalf the Grey himself would have said that Saruman was more powerful and Gandalf the White did say that Sauron "was mightier still".

First, Gandalf was known for his humility and it is the reason he succeeded where others failed, particularly Saruman who mistakenly considered himself the most powerful of his order and a peer of Sauron. I have written much about this in other threads. Second, Gandalf does not say that Sauron "is mightier still." This quote is constantly misinterpreted. Gandalf says that "Black is mightier still." There's no reason to believe that Sauron sometimes goes by the name Black. Black refers to The Bad Guys who, at the time that this was said, clearly still had the upper hand. It has absolutely nothing to do with Gandalf's perception of his own power.

Originally Posted by CSteefel

But Tolkien says in "The Istari" in the Unfinished Tales that

Nice research. The context of this excerpt is important, however. Here Tolkien refers to her role in the overthrow of Sauron in the Third Age, which is somewhat different than what she might be capable of in direct confrontation with the Nazgul. With this in mind, it is telling that Tolkien calls her unequivocally "unconquerable."

Edit: In my post above I referenced Glorfindel's "return to innocence" but did not elaborate because I intended to do so later in the post, but then I forgot. I think most parties involved in this discussion are probably familiar with what I was referring to, but here it is anyway (from HoMe 12 - Last Writings):

We can thus understand why he seems so powerful a figure and almost "angelic". For he had returned to the primitive innocence of the First-born...

It goes on to include his long association with Maiar and faithful Eldar in Aman as additional reason for his enhancement.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Well, you did say I have to disagree with you - I think [Glorfindel] was the most powerful of the Eldar remaining in ME.

What I disagree with is your statement:

Originally Posted by obloquy

His reincarnation was relatively unique, but his power was not. Note that he is still never spoken of as one of the greatest of the Eldar.

I believe his power was outstanding - at least in the Third Age ME. In the First Age there had been many Elves greater than him - that's why he is not counted among the greatest of the Eldar overall. But in the Third Age he was quite a figure.
I hate to discuss relative powers of good guys, but it stands to reason that there are many kinds of power - spiritual and physical, power in domination and power in resistance and preservation, power in what men call sorcery etc. In military prowess Glorfindel was, perhaps, unmatched: wasn't he the head of the Elven forces of Lorien and Rivendell in the last Angmar War? - and not Elrond, or Amroth, or Galadriel.

Originally Posted by obloquy

I disagree with the interpretation of the "world of shadow" as a literal realm where a person might be amplified or diminished independent of his "world of direct sunlight" counterpart. It is rather a modified perception of the ordinary, unified world, in which it is possible to see the spiritual power that is ordinarily veiled by corporeal forms.

That has always been my interpretation of the Shadow World as well. But even so, Calaquendi are said to have great powers both in Seen and the Unseen - which the other lack.
And the quotes about reincarnated Elves lead to believe that they have increased power in the Unseen -

"The resurrection of the body (at least as far as Elves were concerned) was in a sense incorporeal. But while it could pass physical barriers at will, it could at will oppose a barrier to matter. If you touched a resurrected body you felt it. Or if it willed it could simply elude you - disappear. Its position in space was at will.

Originally Posted by obloquy

Then why isn't Glorfindel guardian of Narya? Who is Sauron likely to send to retrieve it, if he were to discover its location? Nazgul, right?

In the Third Age The Three rings weren't guarded, they were wielded by those who needed them most - not by those who could guard them better.

Originally Posted by obloquy

Again, Gandalf does not seem to consider Glorfindel unique, but just "one of" the Elf lords present in Rivendell.

Sure, how could Tolkien in his text written in 1930-ies and published in 50-ies use the ideas from his late writings? But while writing about Glorfindel later (text in HOME 12) he did take into account LOTR. Also, as I said, Gandalf was not supposed to reveal everything to the hobbit in mid-quest.

Originally Posted by obloquy

Gandalf was known for his humility and it is the reason he succeeded where others failed, particularly Saruman who mistakenly considered himself the most powerful of his order and a peer of Sauron.

Humility is a good thing, and a part of "general strength" but it is different from raw power. Had Gandalf been mightier than Sauron, he wouldn't fear to confront him over the Palantir. Had Gandalf been mightier than Saruman, he wouldn't be trapped in Orthanc. If Gandalf were able to fight the Nine single-handedly (or with Radagast) he wouldn't have gone to Saruman, leaving Frodo on his own with only Rangers guarding the borders.

Actually, I treasure the image of the old weary wizard in grey, not the mightiest of his kind, sometimes afraid, often mistaken, but stalwart in his mission nonetheless. He is much more likeable (and believable) than a super-hero, mightier than Sauron would ever be.

Then again... what was the original question?

Nevermind the Balrog vs the Witch King. What of the Balrog versus Sauron? The victor of this duel would surely overcome the Witch King. Both were servants of Morgoth, neither were directly in league with one another, however, and they certainly were not allies in The Third Age.

According to Legolas, Sauron would be the favourite:-

It was a Balrog of Morgoth. Of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.

But how could Legolas know this? Who has ever trialled their strength at both the Balrog and Sauron?

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Nevermind the Balrog vs the Witch King. What of the Balrog versus Sauron? The victor of this duel would surely overcome the Witch King. Both were servants of Morgoth, neither were directly in league with one another, however, and they certainly were not allies in The Third Age.

According to Legolas, Sauron would be the favourite:-



But how could Legolas know this? Who has ever trialled their strength at both the Balrog and Sauron?

It doesn't matter how Legolas knew: Tolkien told us unequivocally that Sauron was greater than the balrogs.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by obloquy

"Lords of the Eldar"..."great power"..."one of the mighty of the Firstborn."

I recognize that he was one of the most powerful Elves in Middle-earth ("one of" perhaps quite a large pool of Elves), but I dispute particularly that he had climbed to the tier of Galadriel, who is explicitly stated to be one of the three greatest Eldar (multiple sources) and "the last remaining of the Great of the High Elves" (Letters); or that of Elrond, descendant of the greatest Elda Luthien and of Melian. Further, Tolkien says that if Galadriel's presumption that she could supplant Sauron as the master of the Ring is accurate, then so also could Gandalf and especially Elrond. Elrond and Glorfindel are just two "lords of the Eldar" of the "some" that Gandalf mentions in your quote.
.

But Tolkien says in "The Istari" in the Unfinished Tales that

...Galadriel, the greatest of the Eldar surviving in Middle Earth, was potent mainly in wisdom and goodness, as a director or counsellor in the struggle, unconquerable in resistance (especially in mind and spirit) but incapable of punitive action.

Originally Posted by obloquy

You might be right about who the Witch-King feared more, but there's no reason to suppose WK ever perceived Gandalf's true power or nature. The Witch-King's perception has no bearing on the truth, which is that Gandalf was the single most powerful being in Middle-earth during the Third Age.

This could be correct, since mostly Gandalf kept his power veiled. Saruman does not seem to have realized that his powers had been augmented until his own staff is broken. However, Gandalf does seem to show some of his "hidden power" when he drives off the Nazgul in order to save Faramir. Somehow the Nazgul got the message there, which is also why I suspect that the WK decided to delay a confrontation at the gates...