Feigned fleeing or farciful forestalling? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

skip spence · 12-03-2008, 12:45 PM

In all honesty, this whole Dol Gúldur episode makes little sense, army or no army. I'm leaning towards the army alternative though (Celeborn and Elrond's men, supported by Saruman's devises, whatever those may be) as to me it's more plausable. If there were no army, are we then to believe that Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman and Elrond trekked across Middle Earth all by themselves to oust Sauron the Great from his feared stronghold, no doubt defended by Orcs and Eru knows what? That seems a tall order to me.

Even if it were so and they managed to drive Sauron out (or at least, believing it), how could this be possible without actually conquering the fortress? A few wizards and Elves, albeit very powerful, can hardly besiege and starve out the fortress. Why would Sauron run (or: how could he successfully feign to run) if he was safe behind the walls of his Stronghold? And why wait with driving him out if they thought they could manage it alone without much effort or bloodshed (which they must have if they went there alone)? The main reason for waiting would be not wanting to fight a hard battle incurring heavy casualties no matter the outcome if it wasn't absolutely necessary.

Morthoron · 12-03-2008, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skip spence

Even if it were so and they managed to drive Sauron out (or at least, believing it), how could this be possible without actually conquering the fortress? A few wizards and Elves, albeit very powerful, can hardly besiege and starve out the fortress. Why would Sauron run (or: how could he successfully feign to run) if he was safe behind the walls of his Stronghold? And why wait with driving him out if they thought they could manage it alone without much effort or bloodshed (which they must have if they went there alone)? The main reason for waiting would be not wanting to fight a hard battle incurring heavy casualties no matter the outcome if it wasn't absolutely necessary.

Perhaps they built a large, wooden badger.

alatar · 12-16-2008, 09:47 PM

Just to add a little history regarding Dol Guldur, find below a list of entries from the LotR Appendix B - Third Age:

1050- About this time a shadow falls on Greenwood, and men begin to call it Mirkwood.

1100 - The Wise (the Istari and the chief Eldar) discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur. It is thought to be one of the Nazgul.

2060 - The power of Dol Guldur grows. The Wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again.

2063 - Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur. Sauron retreats and hides in the East.

2460 - Sauron returns with increased strength to Dol Guldur.

2850 - Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron, who is gathering all the Rings and seeking for news of the One, and of Isildur's heir.

2851 - The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him.

2941 - The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur.

2951 - Sauron sends three of the Nazgul to reoccupy Dol Guldur.

3019 - Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur...and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led a host of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its wall and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.

About time! So if I'm doing my math right, for 1919 years, give or take, Dol Guldur was occupied except for 10 of those years when Sauron feinted. Reading the Appendix, do you know how much happened in those almost 2,000 years?

How much better had Galadriel stepped across the River a few years sooner.

12-03-2008, 12:45 PM	#1
skip spence shadow of a doubt Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the streets Posts: 1,125	In all honesty, this whole Dol Gúldur episode makes little sense, army or no army. I'm leaning towards the army alternative though (Celeborn and Elrond's men, supported by Saruman's devises, whatever those may be) as to me it's more plausable. If there were no army, are we then to believe that Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman and Elrond trekked across Middle Earth all by themselves to oust Sauron the Great from his feared stronghold, no doubt defended by Orcs and Eru knows what? That seems a tall order to me. Even if it were so and they managed to drive Sauron out (or at least, believing it), how could this be possible without actually conquering the fortress? A few wizards and Elves, albeit very powerful, can hardly besiege and starve out the fortress. Why would Sauron run (or: how could he successfully feign to run) if he was safe behind the walls of his Stronghold? And why wait with driving him out if they thought they could manage it alone without much effort or bloodshed (which they must have if they went there alone)? The main reason for waiting would be not wanting to fight a hard battle incurring heavy casualties no matter the outcome if it wasn't absolutely necessary. __________________ "You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan

12-16-2008, 09:47 PM	#3
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Just to add a little history regarding Dol Guldur, find below a list of entries from the LotR Appendix B - Third Age: 1050- About this time a shadow falls on Greenwood, and men begin to call it Mirkwood. 1100 - The Wise (the Istari and the chief Eldar) discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur. It is thought to be one of the Nazgul. 2060 - The power of Dol Guldur grows. The Wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again. 2063 - Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur. Sauron retreats and hides in the East. 2460 - Sauron returns with increased strength to Dol Guldur. 2850 - Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron, who is gathering all the Rings and seeking for news of the One, and of Isildur's heir. 2851 - The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him. 2941 - The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur. 2951 - Sauron sends three of the Nazgul to reoccupy Dol Guldur. 3019 - Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur...and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led a host of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its wall and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed. About time! So if I'm doing my math right, for 1919 years, give or take, Dol Guldur was occupied except for 10 of those years when Sauron feinted. Reading the Appendix, do you know how much happened in those almost 2,000 years? How much better had Galadriel stepped across the River a few years sooner. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.