Feigned fleeing or farciful forestalling?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

To me, it seems obvious that Saruman was already duplicitous, long forestalling the White Council's attack on Amon Lanc for his personal reasons. Perhaps the 'devices' Saruman used were just as feigned as was Sauron fleeing, and the two had already worked out an 'exit strategy' together. Both were in possession of the palantiri at the time.

No, please, this is nonsense. Saruman had no real connection to Sauron until the end of the millenium, when he dared to look into the Palantír. He did not look into it until then! And he did not, for Eru's sake, work together with Sauron! I may jump out of my skin when I hear things like that, sorry, but Saruman was a proud, independant traitor! And if you look just into the Tale of the Years, it will become clear to you. There is this date when Saruman looked into the Palantír, as mentioned above, and there is also the note, I believe, that Saruman's intentions to attack Dol Guldur were to prevent Sauron from searching on the Gladden Fields (before, he wanted to keep him there just for the same reason, in hope to find the Ring if it attempted to get back to its Master).

As far as the phrase "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood", I don't consider this to infer an army; rather, it seems to me more likely the White Council put forth their innate powers to drive Sauron forth, much like Galadriel did at the end of the War of the Ring when she laid bare the pits of Dol Guldur and toppled its tower.

Well yes, but even the end of the War of the Ring involved battles with the Orcs and spiders and whatever was in Mirkwood by that time. So, I am not easy to dismiss the possibility of at least an elven commando being around there. I have to look at Rumil's link yet (thanks for it, by the way!), but at least I am certain in the discussion I linked to in my above post, there was something said about reasons for that.

[skip spence]

I agree with Legate and Rumil that The White Council would've sent troops to Dol Guldur, and not just sang the walls down. All this is speculation of course but I imagine the force would've consisting of mainly Galadriel's Silvan Elves, supported by Thranduil and perhaps Elrond too. Saruman might have sent men to fight too.

And Legate, now thinking about it I remember that thread, because I started a similar one myself (not knowing about the other) which was merged with yours.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I agree with Legate and Rumil that The White Council would've sent troops to Dol Guldur, and not just sang the walls down. All this is speculation of course but I imagine the force would've consisting of mainly Galadriel's Silvan Elves, supported by Thranduil and perhaps Elrond too. Saruman might have sent men to fight too.

Yes, that sounds plausible - at least if there was somebody, then the Silvan Elves from Lórien (not sure about Thranduil, don't forget that at the same time there has been trouble with the Dragon and Dwarves) and the others, possibly. Though I find the idea of Saruman's men being there absolutely fascinating - if it were to be so (and it is plausible he would have had at least a servant or two with him, if only for that one would carry his books and the other take care of the horses or something like that), just imagine the simple Isengarders being taken and sent into a far and alien land, what more, to fight alongside the Elves! Hm, okay, actually now thinking about it, it sounds a bit unlikely. After all, the times of Last Alliance were long gone and besides, the Men would have been really ill-suited to fight in such an environment like Mirkwood was, which they were not familiar with at all. But still, a nice idea to play with.

And Legate, now thinking about it I remember that thread, because I started a similar one myself (not knowing about the other) which was merged with yours.

Oh yes, actually, true, I recalled something like that. Interesting, it seems as if it were a really long time ago to me...

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

One can both flee and fake, and I think Sauron has used this method before: allow the enemy to think that they have struck terror into your poor, weak, pitiful heart, don't let them know how strong you really are, and then only later, show your real power. As honey-tongued a liar as Saruman showed himself to be, he was an amateur compared to Sauron, who managed to convince the King of Numenor that he was truly surrendering to him and was so sufficiently defeated and demoralized that it was safe to take him back to Numenor as a "hostage." It didn't take long before Sauron was able to corrupt Ar-Pharazon and his court, and it wasn't long after "fleeing" Dol Guldur that Sauron openly took up residence in his real stronghold, Barad-dur, and began making trouble on a much grander scale. I'm blanking a bit on some of Sauron's activities in the First Age, but if I'm recalling correctly, he did some "fake fleeing" back then, too. He knows when it's foolish to keep on fighting -- when it's time to employ the maxim "he who fights and runs away lives to fight another day" -- and if he can fake his enemies into thinking he is fleeing because he is near-mortally wounded or vastly overpowered, even better. That would lull them into an at least temporary sense of relief and security, so that they will not be expecting retaliation from him any time in the near future, and thus may be surprised and caught unprepared when it comes.

My nickel's worth, at any rate.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

One can both flee and fake, and I think Sauron has used this method before: allow the enemy to think that they have struck terror into your poor, weak, pitiful heart, don't let them know how strong you really are, and then only later, show your real power.

Thanks everyone for their posts.

I get that Sauron was ready to move, yet only moved when pushed. However, it seems that Gandalf, being one of the Wise, doesn't incorporate this knowledge when making statement #2. If he really thought that Sauron was forced into feigning fleeing, then why does he credit Saruman so much, especially after spending a few nights on the roof of Orthanc?

Something just doesn't sit right.

And I'm going to have to read more about the Army of the White Council; who were they and what were they doing during the battle of the Five armies (or do I have my history mixed up?)?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by alatar

I get that Sauron was ready to move, yet only moved when pushed. However, it seems that Gandalf, being one of the Wise, doesn't incorporate this knowledge when making statement #2. If he really thought that Sauron was forced into feigning fleeing, then why does he credit Saruman so much, especially after spending a few nights on the roof of Orthanc?

Something just doesn't sit right.

At least from my part, you got almost all I wanted to say in my post, except for one thing I was desperately trying to explain there, although the message was hard to convey And that concerned exactly this question you are putting up.

Simply: It was by the device of Saruman that Sauron was driven out of Dol Guldur. He deserves the credit, I think we can imagine it the way that had not Saruman been present, Sauron would have remained in Dol Guldur. Is what I have in mind clear enough from what I say? Had Sauron not been driven out of Dol Guldur, he would have caused mischief in Mirkwood all the time. This way, we can guess his forces in the North were largely diminished and also, during the Watchful Peace he could not cause more mischief in the North.

And I'm going to have to read more about the Army of the White Council; who were they and what were they doing during the battle of the Five armies (or do I have my history mixed up?)?

Hmm, I think you are maybe getting a bit confused from some of the talk here (or I am confused about you). There was no "Army of the White Council" as an existing executive unit, the Council were, as you surely know, the "Wise" like Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond etc. and that was all. All the military power they had at their disposition were the native people of the realms they ruled (or eventually, some allies they could ask). This is why I am inclined to think that for example some Elves from Lothlórien may have aided the strike against Dol Guldur. But not much else. There was no reason for the Elves of Lórien, otherwise rather withdrawn and remaining inside their borders, to go all the length of the world into the Battle of the Five Armies, which did not concern them at all. The Dragon did not concern them in the first place when he was still alive, why should he concern them any more after he died. Likewise, the Elves of Rivendell stayed in Rivendell. It would have been quite of an effort to assemble an army and march over the mountains and the forest. Likewise Saruman, why should he hurry up there (and he probably didn't have any decent army by then yet anyway). Which brings me to the main point - what would have been the reasons for these armies to intervene in the first place. All the other armies came to Erebor because they wanted a share of profit from the Dragon's treasure. I don't see Elrond or Galadriel wishing to go there to grab their piece of gold (placing aside the obstacles of the journey itself), and for Saruman, I think the treasure was not as interesting to him by itself, unless he'd presume to find some Rings there, or such... So, really no reason for the White Council to interfere into the Battle at all (bear in mind that neither of the sides - except for the Goblins - knew that the battle is going to take place until the Goblins arrived there!).

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Simply: It was by the device of Saruman that Sauron was driven out of Dol Guldur. He deserves the credit, I think we can imagine it the way that had not Saruman been present, Sauron would have remained in Dol Guldur. Is what I have in mind clear enough from what I say? Had Sauron not been driven out of Dol Guldur, he would have caused mischief in Mirkwood all the time. This way, we can guess his forces in the North were largely diminished and also, during the Watchful Peace he could not cause more mischief in the North.

I'm questioning not your replies, but the original text itself and how I'm reading it, which may be a completely distorted thing.

Hmm, I think you are maybe getting a bit confused from some of the talk here (or I am confused about you). There was no "Army of the White Council" as an existing executive unit, the Council were, as you surely know, the "Wise" like Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond etc. and that was all.

Sorry; I was being facetious regarding the 'Grand Army of the Republic.'

All the military power they had at their disposition were the native people of the realms they ruled (or eventually, some allies they could ask). This is why I am inclined to think that for example some Elves from Lothlórien may have aided the strike against Dol Guldur. But not much else. There was no reason for the Elves of Lórien, otherwise rather withdrawn and remaining inside their borders, to go all the length of the world into the Battle of the Five Armies, which did not concern them at all.

I guess that Thranduil found easier picking North than South, and when later Legolas recounts the escape of Gollum and about how his folk do not tread too closely to Dol Guldur, we get more of the picture.

Okay, so I'm punting. What grand stratagem or device does anyone think Saruman discovered that aided in the fumigating of the Necromancer's abode?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by alatar

I get that Sauron was ready to move, yet only moved when pushed. However, it seems that Gandalf, being one of the Wise, doesn't incorporate this knowledge when making statement #2. If he really thought that Sauron was forced into feigning fleeing, then why does he credit Saruman so much, especially after spending a few nights on the roof of Orthanc?

Something just doesn't sit right.

Entirely possible. I think I want to go read the entire section and make sure everything is in context before I ponder this some more (a major undertaking at the moment, since the books were returned to their shelf in my office, which once again is in a nearly impassable state). What it may be in the long run is not a flaw in Gandalf's thinking, but a flaw in the writing. Heaven knows I've read plenty of books in which such an error remained through many revisions and edits, and some of them cannot really be reconciled to the rest of the story. Meaning the mistake, if there is one, may not be Gandalf's, but Tolkien's and his various editors.

About an "army" of the Wise, though.... I don't believe Tolkien intended for the reader to believe that they actually had a standing militia. When I get back to that bookshelf, I believe I shall go rooting through the Letters as well. May shed some light on it.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

No, please, this is nonsense. Saruman had no real connection to Sauron until the end of the millenium, when he dared to look into the Palantír.

Nonsense? Nonsense! Unfactual perhaps, reaching maybe, but nonsense? Pfffttt! I offered a perfectly good conspiracy theory, and like any good conspiratorial illuminator I eschewed actually looking up silly little points as to who did what with whom and when or where, and glossed over anyone's actual intentions. It's not the facts that make good propaganda, its the juicy story! Geeze, Leggy, get with the program!