Werewolf LIII: The Republic

[Thinlómien]

++Shasta for rep

I think he's probably innocent and I want to know what he'll do with the power... but if he gives a mere spite-vote to tp I'm going to be seriously disappointed.

[the phantom]

Nog- does my view of the chess match make sense to you?

Green- did I answer your questions?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I mean there has been a host of arguments going around like "X would not kill Y" or "Z would kill W" so "they are wolves" / "must be innocents". Now even if the wolves may stab each other in the back during the Days, during the Nights it's normally a teamwork and quite democratic indeed - at least to my experience of both being a wolf a host of times and reading wolf-PM's some have provided other players in the after-game discussions.

So I would take every such claim with a pinch of salt indeed.

I agree to some extent, but you also must keep in mind individual personalities when deciding how much salt to use.

For instance, when I've been a Werewolf, I've always been the one who PMs the kill to the Mod as far as I can remember. And I would not be above being undemocratic if my partners were being unreasonable.

For instance, if someone was ringing Seer bells and the rest of my pack wanted to kill somebody else merely to cause some sort of flimsy set up that may or may not work, I would PM them and tell them that hitting the Seer was the priority.

If they actually disagreed with that statement, then I'd disown them, and could very well just pretend to go along with them and then send my own pick to the Mod.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Lommy

++Shasta for rep

I think he's probably innocent and I want to know what he'll do with the power... but if he gives a mere spite-vote to tp I'm going to be seriously disappointed.

Yeah, right. Because no one would guess that would happen.

What it looks like to me- you're hoping he'll do just that, but saying what you did in an attempt to distance yourself from him when he does what you are betting he'll do.

[Brinniel]

tp and Boro really are bothering me. And it's not just the buddying up business....I agree this ploy thing is getting annoying. It's like saying, "Look what I did, I'm so helpful to the village. I'm an absolute genius compared to the rest of you who didn't even attempt any ploys." And then when people start to suspect them, they react like, "Why are you suspecting me? You should be thanking me." It's such arrogant behaviour. And if they really were innocent, why even mention that they successfully set up a ploy? What's done is done and I don't see a reason why anyone else should know about the ploy, especially if you intend to trap the wolves again.

tp and Boro are distracting, and I just can't see why someone who is actually innocent would want to distract us from focusing on the wolves. I'm not so sure that both of them are wolves (though it's something they could certainly pull off), but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if one them is a baddie.

EDIT: X-ed since #932

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

tp and Boro are distracting, and I just can't see why someone who is actually innocent would want to distract us from focusing on the wolves. I'm not so sure that both of them are wolves (though it's something they could certainly pull off), but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if one them is a baddie.

Could you give an example of how they are distracting?

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Gwath

Could you give an example of how they are distracting?

The entire village is keeping focused on those two. If they are both innocent, there are four wolves out there we're not paying attention to. If one or both of them are wolves, there are still two or three other wolves hiding among us. Let's not forget about that.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nog

Somehow I'm thinking we should leave them for the seer - if they promise to not draw all the discussion on themselves from now on...

We're not trying to draw the discussion to us. I think the focus on us is silly. If people truly feel we're a distraction, how about they stop talking about us? No, that'd be too easy.

I agree about leaving us to the Seer. The Seer will die eventually. When he/she does, it'll be obvious what I am. Perhaps Boro as well.

[Nogrod]

Oh my. I lost a whole post as my online time went out in the neighbourhood pub I was doing this... it went over with three minutes so at the moment I posted it the post just vanished...

Okay. I'm home now and need to be quick. I mean there are new things I feel I have to open my mouth on, really.


tp whatever you are and whatever are your ways I'm thinking you're going a bit off limits very soon. I mean just look at these few from your latest posts.

Originally Posted by tp

I did express surprise that I was being suspected apparently because I was actively trying to achieve something.

Originally Posted by tp

Well if we're telling the truth, then it's true, isn't it?

Originally Posted by tp

And the reason we discussed the ploy with each other was simply to see if we were on the same page. Building trust! You people wonder why we're trusting each other? Um, maybe because we're doing things to build trust.

You know tp that none of these have nothing to do with "clear thinking" you're calling after or are in no way discernible to anyone outside your own head. You call for people to trust you with these!

Why should Greenie trust you? Or Gwath? Or Nerwen? Think of anyone of us others (fex. one of the named above) saying one of these lines and think how you would react? Try it even once...

So you're not satisfied with those arguments? Not satisfied because it was the wrong person saying it? Let me tell you a secret, one doesn't know your role in advance so you might be a goodie or a baddie - like anyone around here. So a person is not the one thing you can trust but the argument. Still you think we should just ignore the non-existant quality of the ones you just produced and then you think you're rightfully annoyed if some people protest?

You can be tp whatever you wish to be but you should admit you're the extreme submarine - compared to whom Gil-Galad and The Ka are loud and clear!

Remember I said I will be judging you on how you behave this Day as it might be your last Day. You're not delivering my friend. You're still producing more chaos around with your reckless argumentation.

I don't know if you are a wolf or a sheep but you manage to make everything a mess - just look at toDay. Remember tp, it's not only whether you're right or not about things but whether what you do aids the village or not (and if you're a wolf then...).

I mean your possibly excellent strategies, if they get you lynched then it's one less possibility for the village to get a wolf lynched.

Your somewhat arrogant "reasonings" (look above for citations) steal all the room as people think whether you have good intentions or not - and the village fails once again as they have no time to concentrate on other things.

You may be right but you ruin the things for those you supposed to be fighting for.


You know your Days are ended either by the seer or the wolves pretty soon so please start to actually think if you're an innocent - and if not, then I'm not going stand in the way of your lynching.

You have something like 28 hours to prove yourself.

Haha, sounds like I had some authority over things...

[the phantom]

The Rep votes thus far-

morm for Lommy
Green for morm
Lommy for Shasta

Thus far only those who are suspicious of Boro and I have gotten votes. What I must ponder is this- are the WWs driving this bus, or have Ordos been swept into the Wolf plot so much so that they are driving this thing?

Just to help everyone order their thoughts, here are the facts.

Boro and I are displaying trust for each other and are attempting to work together. This is where all of the suspicion stems from.

Fact: We are both likely to be correct given the simple odds to begin this village.

Fact: We are extremely familiar with each other, and I at least have shown a great ability to read him in the past, pegging him quite often on Day 1 as Ordo or Wolf.

Fact: The ploys that we were doing can be seen quite clearly in hindsight and their workings explained logically.

Given the facts of the situation, it hardly seems logical that the village would swing against us. In addition please consider this VERY IMPORTANT POINT which I've been just itching to bring up-

What is the number one reason for someone to trust someone else?

Answer- you are the Seer and have dreamed that person an Ordo.

Then why is the common logic being spread about that this trust means that there must be something devilish going on? Beware! You are being lead astray by this thinking!

You would think that if someone truly had the best intentions of the village in mind, the first thing that would come to mind with Boro and I would be, "Crap! One of them is the Seer and they've dreamed about the other one. The Wolves are going to spot that and take them out!" How is it that this basic thought proccess has been completely swept under the rug?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Given the facts of the situation, it hardly seems logical that the village would swing against us. In addition please consider this VERY IMPORTANT POINT which I've been just itching to bring up-

What is the number one reason for someone to trust someone else?

Answer- you are the Seer and have dreamed that person an Ordo.

The other situation in which it is possible to have complete certainty regarding another player's role is if you are both wolves. I am not arguing that this is the case with you and Boro, but it is just as likely a possibility as one of you being a Seer. In that situation, only one can trust the other, and not vice-versa.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Brin

I agree this ploy thing is getting annoying. It's like saying, "Look what I did, I'm so helpful to the village. I'm an absolute genius compared to the rest of you who didn't even attempt any ploys."

Hmm... I don't recall that either of us said that. I did express surprise that I was being suspected apparently because I was actively trying to achieve something. But the way you said it- it provokes negative emotions. And that doesn't help anything. So if you were in some way offended by anything you read, try to become unoffended quickly. For no offense was intended, and being in an aggravated state does not aid clear thinking.

Originally Posted by Brin

And then when people start to suspect them, they react like, "Why are you suspecting me? You should be thanking me."

Well if we're telling the truth, then it's true, isn't it?

And the reason we discussed the ploy with each other was simply to see if we were on the same page. Building trust! You people wonder why we're trusting each other? Um, maybe because we're doing things to build trust.

Originally Posted by Brin

tp and Boro are distracting, and I just can't see why someone who is actually innocent would want to distract us from focusing on the wolves.

Yeah, the only reason that we're the focus is because the rest of you people have made us the focus. We can't do it ourselves.

We were just going along doing our bit for the cause and suddenly we're jumped on for doing our bit. It makes little sense, and I agree with you that we're distracting. But guess what- it has nothing to do with us. Others have made us the focus.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Gwath

In that situation, only one can trust the other, and not vice-versa.

Not if the other figures out what has happened.

[Boromir88]

Hmm. I was thinking about tp or Nogrod as a rep. But, I may follow Lommy's suit and go with Shasta. Shasta, I like your combative style so far against suspicions, that's a good sign, but I wish I could see more of your own suspicions. I may be missing them.

Right now, morm's making me uneasy. You avoided the confrontation too easily. What I remember of you morm is you're not only sensible, but a strong player, in the sense that you don't back away easily. I liked your points against Nerwen yesterday, but today you started efforts against tp and myself, which doesn't mean you're a wolf, but you shied away from that confrontation too easily. When I challenged you as to why I suddenly leapfrogged tp in your suspicions, you put on the brakes again. It looks like you're making sense by continually making points on your suspects, but when challenged, you don't want to go through with it, you don't pursue your suspicions any further.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Right now, morm's making me uneasy. You avoided the confrontation too easily. What I remember of you morm is you're not only sensible, but a strong player, in the sense that you don't back away easily. I liked your points against Nerwen yesterday, but today you started efforts against tp and myself, which doesn't mean you're a wolf, but you shied away from that confrontation too easily. When I challenged you as to why I suddenly leapfrogged tp in your suspicions, you put on the brakes again. It looks like you're making sense by continually making points on your suspects, but when challenged, you don't want to go through with it, you don't pursue your suspicions any further.

I'm sorry Boro I don't follow you here? I haven't backed down against you, I simply voted for my rep and got busy with other things. As to why you leaped frogged phantom on my list I would say you leap frogged a whole host of people on my list, including my previous top suspect, Nerwen. I still suspect others that I've mentioned, namely Nerwen, Nogrod, Ilya and phantom. I have no other explination than you stand out as the most likely of the 5 to be a wolf. If I were to pick between you and phantom, assuming only 1 is a wolf, you seem to be the one who would be the wolf and using the phantom relationship to your advantage.

[Boromir88]

If I were to pick between you and phantom, assuming only 1 is a wolf, you seem to be the one who would be the wolf and using the phantom relationship to your advantage.~morm

Or I challenged you to defend your answer, and after you were called out for trying to say I was backstabbing tp, you skirted away. Well until now, that I have directly called you out on it.

But, now I must do the skirting away as I'll be back in a couple hours.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Or I challenged you to defend your answer, and after you were called out for trying to say I was backstabbing tp, you skirted away. Well until now, that I have directly called you out on it.

But, now I must do the skirting away as I'll be back in a couple hours.

I'm sorry Boro but you are not making any sense to me on this. It seems fairly knee-jerk and grasping at straws all at once.

[Kath]

And Nog is telling me to post more ... all is right with the world.

But all is not right with my internet. I'm really loathe to do this but I think I'm going to have to simply vote for a Rep, shut the computer and internet down for the night and hope it sorts itself out for tomorrow because it's currently taking between 5 and 10 minutes to load a page and that's when it doesn't time itself out.

++NOG for Rep

Yes, yes, faint in shock at the thought of my trusting the ever-suspicious Nogbod, but I have actually come to terms with the fact that I think he's innocent. There are a few others I might have voted for. phantom is one (loving the tummy thing btw morm, it makes me laugh every time I see it!), Lommy is another. But toDay I'm going with Nog, I think it's good for me to get over this 'it's Nog! He must be evil' thing and this is as good a way as any.