Tol-in-Gaurhoth LII: Star Crossed II: Together for Eternity

[Brinniel]

Also, I can see that Groin is online this very minute...he forgot to turn invisible. What does that tell us? My guess is that he basically quit the game as an ordo without getting modfired...but if he does turn out to be lover and is not participating on purpose, I'm going to be very bitter. But I think he's a better sport than that, and I hope I'm right.

[Nogrod]

This is getting interesting!

And just for starters I will have to say I share Brinn's uneasiness with Fea's revelation of her role which kind of makes her immune to any kind of attack whatsoever (from the rival baddies and from us innocents).

I'll have to think of it as it seems there are arguments to be made on behalf of her revalment being true and against it. But as a gut-reaction I'd say she should be lynched by one volunteering innocent (no one else casts a vote) on one Day before it's too late...

But I'll look back to it. As well to a few other things...

[Gollum the Great]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

If you really have no clue, I recommend reviewing posts from previous Days in more depth. You've been pretty vague so far and it'd be more helpful for us to hear some stronger opinions than "I don't know."

If you insist I'll check back up once more, but half the roles in the village, er, hotel, depend on whether Fea is really the seer.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

This is getting interesting!

And just for starters I will have to say I share Brinn's uneasiness with Fea's revelation of her role which kind of makes her immune to any kind of attack whatsoever (from the rival baddies and from us innocents).

I'll have to think of it as it seems there are arguments to be made on behalf of her revalment being true and against it. But as a gut-reaction I'd say she should be lynched by one volunteering innocent (no one else casts a vote) on one Day before it's too late...

But I'll look back to it. As well to a few other things...

Heh. Are you volunteering, dear?



Brinn's right; Groin's still online, yet he hasn't posted. Groin, have you left the game? Maybe he's cathing up on posts???? If nothing else, make sure to turn invisible. Oh, and post!


Alternatively, to Gollum. If you don't have a pretty concrete suspicion list go back over the posts and at least concentrate on one person. That way we at least get something from you other than "I don't know" and "I agree with so-and-so". yes, I know, I shouldn't talk, as I've been pretty lazy this game, but the more people who help the better. In short, Gollum, just go through and give us gut reactions to what you see, if nothing else.


Off to type some things up before work. Be here for about another 45 minutes if I'm needed.


EDIT: x'd with Gollum. And bolding, which I really suck at lately.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Sally

Heh. Are you volunteering, dear?

I even might be.

But I'm going to look at that revealment first.

Originally Posted by Fea

I'm a seer who's only allowed to dream of innocents. If I dream of a Lover, I die. If a Lover pair kills me, they and I all die. If the village kills me, everybody who voted for me is retributionally slaughtered.

Okay. It's possible Di might have thought of that kind of a special-indeed role and it would suit Fea pretty nicely if she was handpicked into the role.

Gwath then kindly provided us with this from Day2 (I'm too lazy to go back there and find it myself):

Originally Posted by Fea

Stop that. Really, no matter who you are you don't want me lynched. Cross my heart and promise. The wolves want me alive, the village wants me alive, and when it comes time for my death, you'd better believe that it's best for everybody if it's on my own terms.

So it looks like she's hinting towards her role already there.

Also she said I'm innocent which is true indeed.

So all fine and dandy?

Well not all.

First of all I'm a bit suspicious about there being such a role that basically makes the player immune to any attacks if she's believed. And in a village where there is no clear knowledge about what kind of roles there are a great baddie might come up with a scheme like this. And that baddie would need to be also both playful and daring - which both apply to Fea just too well (also the "hinting" before revelation).

Secondly the timing of the revelation really raises my eyebrows. No one was actually suspecting Fea at the moment. So why the hurry to do that? She could have revealed a bit later if it would have looked like she was garnering some serious suspicion (and there was that mentioning of the role in her post in Day2 which should have convinced those wishing to lynch her anyway not to do it right away).

And sure it would have been a great way to go not telling the lovers about her capacities and taking both of them with her if they tried her during the Night? If she was a seer she could have just left a post saying it clearly enough for those reading her posts afterwards where she tells I'm innocent ie. not attention-grabbinlgy but using words which don't jump into one's eye when just looking through but reveal the intent if one reads them with knowledge of her role afterwards.

If she is a lover she would be afraid of the other (one of) lover-pair coming after her as the size of the village gets smaller. That would be a good reason for the timing. If we all believed her, the possible remaining lovers would leave her being afraid of trying her and we would not dare lynch her either. Perfect.
(And btw. all the lovers were alive when she revealed: McCaber and Greenie only got dead after that!)


I was already making pretty wild theories on this before I remembered Eomer has something to say in this. I'm waiting for him to appear before going with this any further...

EDIT: changed Gwath into McCaber, thank's to Sally...

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

If she is a lover she would be afraid of the other (one of) lover-pair coming after her as the size of the village gets smaller. That would be a good reason for the timing. If we all believed her, the possible remaining lovers would leave her being afraid of trying her and we would not dare lynch her either. Perfect.
(And btw. all the lovers were alive when she revealed: Gwath and Greenie only got dead after that!)


I was already making pretty wild theories on this before I remembered Eomer has something to say in this. I'm waiting for him to appear before going with this any further...

You mean Cabbie?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Shasta

And I voted McCaber the day before yesterday because I had a major bad feeling about one of his posts; while I'm looking at Eomer, I'll see if I can't find it.

Now this was the first post of toDay.

How come you were so keen to point out that you voted for a baddie the Day before? And what would it help if we knew afterwards which were your reasons for doing that now that both McCaber and his mistress Greenie are dead and gone and there's no information to be gained if they did not know the other pairs? Or were you just a bit too hastily trying to make yourself look good as you had "got it right as well"? Or did you know that?

There is something that is now freaking me, some of my own conspiracy-theories are taking over little by little in this nuthouse village...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

You mean Cabbie?

Ah, sorry... I'm going to change that... Thank's for notifying...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now this was the first post of toDay.

How come you were so keen to point out that you voted for a baddie the Day before? And what would it help if we knew afterwards which were your reasons for doing that now that both McCaber and his mistress Greenie are dead and gone and there's no information to be gained if they did not know the other pairs? Or were you just a bit too hastily trying to make yourself look good as you had "got it right as well"? Or did you know that?

There is something that is now freaking me, some of my own conspiracy-theories are taking over little by little in this nuthouse village...

Uh, no, because I recalled that I hadn't been able to explain that vote, and someone had mentioned it earlier.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

This is all a bit confusing and I have little faith that we're going to get to the bottom of things very soon.

Now, I will not rule out the possibility that Fea is lying. That she is a black-hearted scoundrel seeking naught but mischief and the pain of others should be clear to most Barrow-Downers. But I won't let the natural "Fea is screwing with us" reaction kick in without a thought.

She apparently knows my secret. All well and good. I'm not sure, though, whether she knows this more interesting piece of information: I didn't protect Nogrod.

So, what to make of this? There could be another Ranger in town, but I immediately think this unlikely. Two Rangers in a regular game would be an intriguing balance for more powerful villains; but in this game? Where it seems the Lovers are really battling the odds? I have to doubt it.

Which makes me think that Diamond has something really, really bizarre going on. Unfortunately for us players, we can hardly do anything logical about it. Is it something to do with Fea's weird role? Whether she's directly involved (if she's truthful) or whether it's the work of some powerful counter of Fea.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Uh, no, because I recalled that I hadn't been able to explain that vote, and someone had mentioned it earlier.

Isn't it still kind of overdoing it as you didn't vote yesterDay and no one has kind of toDay asked about that vote from the Day before or suspected you about it (as your post was the first one toDay)? Not that you explained it toDay either... and who cares about that anymore.

So eager to point to your "good judgement"? And why? Vanity or more evil intentions?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I'm not sure, though, whether she knows this more interesting piece of information: I didn't protect Nogrod.

I don't understand. Who or what protected Nogrod? I know he's an ordo, so he can't have done anything to protect himself. If you didn't protect him, how did he survive the Lovers?

[Gwathagor]

Eomer: who have you protected and which Nights?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Eomer: who have you protected and which Nights?

Eomer: Please refrain from telling who you protected last night, as I for one do not want the remaining Lover pair to know who cannot be protected this night.

[Gwathagor]

Yes. That is a legitimate point. Sorry.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

She apparently knows my secret. All well and good. I'm not sure, though, whether she knows this more interesting piece of information: I didn't protect Nogrod.

So, what to make of this? There could be another Ranger in town, but I immediately think this unlikely. Two Rangers in a regular game would be an intriguing balance for more powerful villains; but in this game? Where it seems the Lovers are really battling the odds? I have to doubt it.

I would think that if there were indeed two Rangers, we would have seen some evidence of it in the narration, so I have to doubt it too.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I would think that if there were indeed two Rangers, we would have seen some evidence of it in the narration, so I have to doubt it too.

I wish I had time to wrap my head around this, but I'm in class for the next six hours. Oh how I love Tuesdays...

But then- we might not have seen evidence in the narration because unless the two Rangers' choices conflicted or something, would Di mention it? Because thus far she's only mentioned people who have been directly involved, right?

But it doesn't make sense to have two rangers. Except it doesn't make sense not to, if Eomer didn't protect Nogrod.

I'm having trouble coming up with logical scenarios that would explain any of this. I have to go for now...

[Nogrod]

I just looked at an US election special from BBC and there was this old guy saying "Mac is back". Let's hear when he comes around as we'd surely do with his help now...

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I didn't protect Nogrod.

After I heard from Fea you'd be a ranger I kind of counted on that you'd be one of those ready to take that risk. If you're not misleading us then I'm confident with that and give you my thanks. Well done!

But now we are in the stages of the game our being in the darkness starts to be a real burden.

I'll try to open up a few of the possibilities - which there sure is almost a limitless number - in a moment.

PS. If Eomer is indeed the ranger he bluffed the baddies by not protecting me last Night... Yes, I agree with Fea at this point that he should not tell it out aloud... ADD... who he protected last Night

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

This is getting interesting!

And just for starters I will have to say I share Brinn's uneasiness with Fea's revelation of her role which kind of makes her immune to any kind of attack whatsoever (from the rival baddies and from us innocents).

As am I. But I am more uneasy with her exposure of Eomer's supposed role. Why should she do something like that? Eomer was not yet in any grave danger, and even if he was, it should be his choice to reveal his or not. With his alleged role revealed, the lovers are bound to kill him toNight. If Fea is telling the truth about Eomer, then not only is she taking his fate into her own hands, but she is endangering the safety of the village, as the Ranger is integral to our survival. I am extremely uncomfortable with this situation as it forces us, without evidence, to assume that Fea has our best interests in mind, and I have no reason to believe this. I am certainly not going to take her word for it.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

But it doesn't make sense to have two rangers. Except it doesn't make sense not to, if Eomer didn't protect Nogrod.

Interesting. You Fea if any should be familiar with this most elementary ranger-gamble: whether to protect a known innocent in a tight place when the baddies think he will be protected or take the risk and not do it so that the baddies go for somewhere else and s/he could then protect the known innocent the next Night for real buying her/him one more Day around.

It kind of looks like you knew the baddies were after me last Night in any case... Was it because you were?

But who the heck then saved me and why was in to mentioned like the earlier "saves" were mentioned? Maybe you Fea just really aren't able to pick the pieces together right now as you said?

Gah, this is getting twisted indeed....

[Nogrod]

Exactly my thoughts Gwath!

That really bothers me as well, the revelation of Eomer's role I mean... and the timing of Fea's own revelation...

[Gwathagor]

I'll lay my cards on the table.

I think that Fea has lied about Eomer, and that Eomer is playing along. I also think that he wisely claimed not to have protected you, Nogrod, in order that he not contradict the real Ranger. And, suddenly, the idea of two Rangers is introduced and the real Ranger is no longer able to prove Eomer's guilt by a counter-reveal. This is how I see the situation, and it's diabolical.

[Nogrod]

Just a quick thought that came to my mind while having a cigarette on my balcony.

It would surely be unethical to PM Groin and ask him to give the one vote for Fea toDay, or perhaps better toMorrow, while we all others withdrew from voting... But if he happens to come online and post something that might be suggested.

Okay. Needs to think...

But the first one right here.

If Fea and Eomer are the last lovers there are they have played themselves into a nice position as not too many of us might be ready to challenge them. The problem remains who rescued myself and Agan during those two Nights then? Somehow I'm not too keen on the idea of two rangers, it looks like an out-of-place -ruling in a game with this general mood.

But if there is someone who is a ranger, s/he should carefully think when to come forwards. Even if I'm not suggesting you come from the closet immediately or toDay anyway, s/he should not leave it too late if those two are not having our best interests in mind. But that's her/his choice.

The next thing that irks me is that if Eomer actually is the ranger why did Fea reveal him? That was totally unnecessary - as well as Fea's own revealment. Which kind of tells me there is something fishy in there. Why did Fea feel it okay to sacrifice the ranger the next Night if she is indeed a goodie? How deep in trouble we are if that is a reasonable way of action performed by the seer?

Could the small numbers of lover-pairs (only two in this big a village) be compensated with a scenario where there is no seer but the lovers get one dream as well as a kill by Night? If the lovers got through the first few Days, then that added with the general uncertitude about the roles might prove to be a great weapon.

My brains are boiling... how I love this!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

While I don't immediately see the advantage in Fea revealing my role (it could be nothing more than gaining a known innocent when one of us dies... or whatever weird scenario plays out when she dies) neither do I see an advantage in evil-Fea's doing what she did.

Gwath, someone always spells out the opposing theory when there's a gifted reveal. I have little to say other than your theory is not true, but very plausible to the unknowing villager.

Maybe Fea is telling us half a truth? The whole thing about both sides being at a disadvantage to kill her seems a bit odd, and too dominating a role.

Another thought: I think the other Ranger might be on the Lovers' side, to protect the different Lover pairs from each other, and focus their attacks on the ordos. Now, this gift might be a bit difficult to use in a rational way, but what if he/she was connected in some way to a Seer? It seems far-fetched though, because we are swiftly running out of players for the roles; and how likely is it that we just killed a bunch of ordos and left the gifteds til the end?

Yeah, this is baffling.

[Brinniel]

Glad to hear Eomer's response. Now I know he is also not on the village's side. He cannot be the ranger and I know this for a fact.

Sorry I can't explain this now...I've gotta run to class. But DO NOT trust Eomer and Fea. I'll be back in about three hours to say more.

[Nogrod]

No fancy theories, just feelings on people...

Groin
So much out of this game I will not vote him and will be totally annoyed with him is he a baddie (was online today but didn't bother checking in). He's more sporty than that so I just don't believe he's a baddie. Really.

Brinniel
Gwath
All they can be blamed of is talking sense (well, not Gwath in the beginning... ). It is no mark of innocence as such but makes me feel better to have them around.

Gollum
I have no idea. Sometimes he looks very suspicious but on others just totally out of touch. If we knew we could afford checking him out I might suggest it. But now I'm not sure.

Sally
Shasta
The two I kind of suspect right now for different reasons I've discussed already some of. I'll try to be more eloquent about that later as some rely on my view of Fea as well...

Fea
Eomer
Either they are our gifteds or then they are lovers... or then there are some really interesting roles and Fea is bad and Eomer is good... or then something else...

Huh.

Originally Posted by Eomer

how likely is it that we just killed a bunch of ordos and left the gifteds til the end?

A good point indeed... so how come all these gifteds start crawling from their caves right now...

Originally Posted by Eomer

While I don't immediately see the advantage in Fea revealing my role (it could be nothing more than gaining a known innocent when one of us dies... or whatever weird scenario plays out when she dies) neither do I see an advantage in evil-Fea's doing what she did.

If there are no really strange things going on you Eomer will bite the dust toNight and we've lost a ranger. That's what's worrying me about the revealmement - especially looking how well you have performed in this game.

It's like Fea got the knowledge and wished to signal that to another baddie party (who's turn it is to make the kill the next Night)? Or anything Di might have come up with as the scenario...

But your scenario about information I just don't believe. She would know better to just hide that info so if she was dead we could be able to read it and not lynch you toMorrow...

And if she's evil, there's no telling right now what the actual situation is I'm afraid... not even what it is with you dear Eomer...

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Glad to hear Eomer's response. Now I know he is also not on the village's side. He cannot be the ranger and I know this for a fact.

No, he cannot.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Glad to hear Eomer's response. Now I know he is also not on the village's side. He cannot be the ranger and I know this for a fact.

OOOPPPS!

This is getting even more interesting... I'm off to look at the election special for a while but rest assured I will be back.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

No, he cannot.

Oooops even more!

So how many rangers do we have or what the heck?

[Gollum the Great]

Huh, what?

This is bizarre. What's going on?

Can anyone explain this to me??????

[Gwathagor]

Fea claims that Eomer is the Ranger, and Eomer supports this claim. He also says that he did not protect Nogrod and suggests that there are two Rangers. There are several of us who think that this is all bull and that Fea would not reveal Eomer's special role if she was innocent or if he was in fact the Ranger. That's it in a nutshell.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

And so it happens. Every time there's a gifted reveal.

++BRINNIEL

As for Gwath, I'm not sure. He already guessed that I was lying so he was obviously easily led by Brinniel. I'm not sure if he is evil but Brinniel clearly is.

Unless there's a truly devilish side to this game that no-one can guess. It's too late: I'm assuming there is good versus bad.

I'll spell it out for those villagers who are more confused by what is happening than I am:

I have revealed, and so has Fea. Judging by Brinniel's reaction, of pairing me and Fea, she sees us both as equal enemies. But either something too bizarre to figure out is going on (and no-one knows if Diamond has arranged this) or, most likely, Brinniel is evil

I think she might even be a cobbler-figure, because I can't see how she was in immediate danger. She sees that the village will have to (probably) make do with one known innocent tomorrow, rather than two, and she's sacrificing herself.

Actually, this makes perfect sense. I can't see why a lover Brinniel would do that because then it's game over for her and her lover in 2 days at most. Nevertheless, my vote stands, because it's too late for me and I must go to bed. Brinniel's very probably evil, and that's that. Apologies for the lack of structure in this post, but my thoughts evolve as I type (and I'm too tired to edit). I think the Lovers are still out there, and Brinn is covering for them. Maybe one is Gwath, I'm not certain.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Interesting. You Fea if any should be familiar with this most elementary ranger-gamble: whether to protect a known innocent in a tight place when the baddies think he will be protected or take the risk and not do it so that the baddies go for somewhere else and s/he could then protect the known innocent the next Night for real buying her/him one more Day around.

No, I mean the night a few nights ago you were protected. You were attacked and didn't die. The narration said so. And if Eomer wasn't protecting you on the night you were attacked and survived it, then how is it you're alive?

Originally Posted by Narration, Night Three

Late at night, a pair went skulking hand in hand towards Nogtod’s room. One held a dagger in hand, the other nodded grimly with determination in eye. But when they arrived at Nogrod’s door, something brought them up short. A figure slumped there, against the frame, clutching something to its chest. A floorboard squeaked under one miscreants' foot, and the figure leapt up, brandishing a mighty fire poker. They saw nothing but shadowy form, and heard a voice cry out, “Go! Go from this room! You will not kill tonight!”

They hid their faces and ran from the scene of their would-be crime.

So there was absolutely a night when Nogrod was protected and attacked. And if Eomer didn't protect him, than surely somebody must have.

Originally Posted by Nog

The next thing that irks me is that if Eomer actually is the ranger why did Fea reveal him?

This is easy. When I woke up, I saw that the people who were getting the most suspicion were Sally and Eomer. My Tuesdays are wretched and I was terrified that if I didn't post right then, I wouldn't have a chance to come back; I was afraid that if the trend of suspicion that started this morning continued, I'd come back and it would be too late for me to save two people who the village can't really risk to lose. I took a really tough gamble, hoping that if I revealed enough innocents, we'd narrow down the list of potential Lovers and lynch them today, before anybody I'd revealed was slain in the night.

Originally Posted by Eomer

Another thought: I think the other Ranger might be on the Lovers' side, to protect the different Lover pairs from each other, and focus their attacks on the ordos. Now, this gift might be a bit difficult to use in a rational way, but what if he/she was connected in some way to a Seer?

How would they be attached? Would the Cobbler-Ranger find out who the Seer had dreamed of? Except I can't dream of bad guys, so if somebody was finding out who I was dreaming of, would it really help the Lovers? I mean, it would give a Cobbler-Ranger a sort of view like "Mac's innocent so there's no point protecting him" except that seems so wildly convoluted.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Glad to hear Eomer's response. Now I know he is also not on the village's side. He cannot be the ranger and I know this for a fact.

How can you know this? Are there multiple seers the same way we're hypothesizing that there are multiple rangers?

Of course I could understand why a Lover would want to dissuade the village from trusting the identities of a revealed pair of innocent-gifteds. If one of us dies today, and not the Lovers, that gives the Lovers another night to kill with impunity.

Why must you be so blatant, Brinniel, in your attempts to manipulate the village into accidentally killing two of its most powerful members?

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

No, he cannot.

Good god, are you serious? These two must certainly be Lovers. I can't imagine any other role that would involve its players so stupidly contradicting me when I assure you with perfect confidence and honesty that I have been dreaming every night.

[satansaloser2005]

If Eomer's the Ranger and he revealed (you know what I mean) didn't he/they just get him killed? I think either the whole thing's a sham (at least the part about Eomer) or else maybe Fea is indeed some weird sort of seer/ranger combo. (Which would explain why she said she's on all sides. Seer to find the baddies for the village and ranger to protect not only ordos, but to save the lovers from each other, savvy?)


Alternatively, I came to check the game while on break from work, hoping I'd get away from nasty stress. My headache is now worse.


EDIT: x'd with Eomer and Fea.

[Gwathagor]

I am the Ranger. I have protected Kitanna, Nogrod, and Aganzir. (No, I'm not going to tell you the fourth one.)

I explained here why I am convinced Fea is lying about Eomer.

With these two facts in mind, I see two possible explanations for the present state of affairs.

#1: Fea and Eomer are lying completely and he is not the Ranger.

#2: Fea and Eomer are only half-lying: there are two Rangers, one good and one evil, and Eomer is the evil Ranger.

Either way,


++Eomer


I am going to find some dinner and I won't be back for about four hours.

[Brinniel]

I have three theories about Fea and Eomer:

1) They are the two lovers. The only question about this is why would they play the gifted card now? But as Noggie stated, out of anyone in this game it is these two who could pull this off. They are some of the most manipulative players I know.

2) Fea and Eomer are two baddies able to communicate at Night, but aren't lovers...perhaps cobblers working together. Considering there were only two pairs of lovers to start with, this is possible.

3) Fea is a cobbler seer and dreamt of Eomer to discover he's a baddie too (but probably not a lover since she wouldn't want to expose him).

Originally Posted by Gwath

I am the Ranger. I have protected Kitanna, Nogrod, and Aganzir. (No, I'm not going to tell you the fourth one.)

*sigh* I know you're the ranger, Gwath. I was hoping our baddies wouldn't draw you out enough to reveal, but it seems we've reached a point where there's no other choice.

[Nogrod]

I must say I'm really getting troubled with this... Fea answers Gwath and points at Brinn's post about "knowing" that Eomer is not what he says he is:

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Good god, are you serious? These two must certainly be Lovers. I can't imagine any other role that would involve its players so stupidly contradicting me when I assure you with perfect confidence and honesty that I have been dreaming every night.

Now if they were lovers they would exactly not do that, right? It would be most stupid indeed for a last pair of lovers to behave that securely against the revealments made. So even suggesting that Fea looks very fishy indeed.

Any other possibilities? I mean I'm a bit confused by the rush and confidence of the way people here reveal or hint that they actually know better. It kind of points towards this being a really deciding moment and not a Day when we just have two lovers and seven innocents left - and whence an innocent dying this Day and probably one the coming Night - would leave us with five innocents against two baddies toMorrow.

I have been from the beginning of the opinion that there being only two pairs of lovers in this-sized village would be unbelievable. I'm not sure whether we got a pair more last Night or was it there from the beginning but looking at it there being four baddies able to win together around right now would explain this rush and certainty.

I mean with nine villagers left of which four being baddies able to win together we would indeed be playing our last Day unless we got it right toDay!

But even granted that, Fea's point about Brinn and Gwath looks bad because to believably make it she should then "know" the situation to be as dangerous as I described it - and she should have known the direness of our situation already yesterDay when she decided to reveal herself. And we have heard nothing about it.

Instead of describing that scenario to us she uses pretty lame defences / counter-accusations like:

Of course I could understand why a Lover would want to dissuade the village from trusting the identities of a revealed pair of innocent-gifteds. If one of us dies today, and not the Lovers, that gives the Lovers another night to kill with impunity.

and:

Why must you be so blatant, Brinniel, in your attempts to manipulate the village into accidentally killing two of its most powerful members?

Of which the first actually counter-argues against the direness of our possible situation (the loss we'd have would only be that of giving the lovers a free kill the next Night) and the second is merely a rhetorical piece with all that "most powerful members" -stuff I kind of don't think is an argument at all.

Or do we have here lovers (some or all of them) finally going after each other openly? But why would they do that? Shouldn't they do that during the Night at this phase of the game and not get that attention?

Thinking, thinking, thinking... and watching the elections...

EDIT: X'd with Brinn and Gwath... Well, well, well...

[Brinniel]

This a lot for everyone to chew on, and I admit I've been only skimming the thread in between classes. I'll read more thoroughly when I get back to my room.

I'm currently in the library and am about to leave for dinner. I'll be back to post more sometime within the hour.

[Nogrod]

Gwath: your argument was that you are convinced of the fact that Fea is lying about Eomer. But still you decided to vote for Eomer and not Fea???

Even if I myself don't actually believe in the two rangers theory (and I might be wrong with that) I would have considered the possibility that Eomer is indeed a ranger as well and thence - and looking at the way he has reacted to the revealments - I'd say he looks more innocent than Fea.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Well obviously Brinniel's the real seer and I'm just faking it.

++Brinniel