Ring of fire, Ring of Air, Ring of ?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by Gordis

There are not four elements found in most philosophies, but five: Earth, Water, Air, Fire +

Slight correction;





Back to the matter in hand;

This matter did niggle me once upon a time. I had thought that the One Ring was very much the 'earth ring', as it were. (Given wheat Gordis has said, I'm more inclined to agree with him, but I feel it nice to explain this theory as well)...
Sauron's desire was to rule Middle Earth. He wanted it to bend to his will. Looking at the land of Mordor we can see that this extended even to the ruin of the earth itself. Not simply ruling the things living on it, but the land itself. It struck me that perhaps it was his intention to use the power of the ring to 'wither all woods'. Thus the Ring would give him power over the earth itself and therefore, you may say, was the Ring of earth.

Another line of thinking is that Tolkien thought; wind, fire, water and earth was cliché .

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

Slight correction;

LOL.

I am no expert on old philosophies. You better google "Four elements" and "Five elements" to learn much more.
I gather Tolkien mostly took into account the European (originally Greek) tradition of Air, Water, Fire, Earth and Aether. Especially considering that the Roman Catholic Church backed it. Japanese-Chinese beliefs were more alien to him, I guess.

As for the stones, it is stated (somewhere) that Nenya had an adamant, Narya a ruby and Vilya a sapphire. Nenya was made of mithril, the rest of gold. Every one of the Seven and the Nine had its own stone, but we are not told which ones.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I suppose that Art must also be considered: "Four rings for the Elven kings" just doesn't sound quite as nice as "Three rings for the Elven kings." Then again, that's just Sauron, writing his binding-verse, and he never appears to have even considered that one of the Three was never owned by an Elven king, lord, or even male (other than its maker, Celebrimbor).

I have also suspected, rather more seriously, that Tolkien went for three rather than four as a symbolic nod to the Trinity; he does admit, after all, that he rather intentionally thought of lembas as something akin to the viaticum of communion, which was why is became so strengthening and sustaining the more it was a person's sole nourishment. This would seem to fall into that same kind of symbolic (not allegorical) thought. Then again, he may have started off with a thing for prime numbers, until he got to the Nine.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I have also suspected, rather more seriously, that Tolkien went for three rather than four as a symbolic nod to the Trinity; he does admit, after all, that he rather intentionally thought of lembas as something akin to the viaticum of communion, which was why is became so strengthening and sustaining the more it was a person's sole nourishment. This would seem to fall into that same kind of symbolic (not allegorical) thought. Then again, he may have started off with a thing for prime numbers, until he got to the Nine.

Nine has some mystical symbolism. It is, after all, representative of Mankind (9 months of pregnancy), and Dante does have 9 circles in Hell (appropriate for Man in the evil sense of the Rings). The Trojan War lasted nine years, and Trojans, as we all know, help protect against the 9 months of pregnancy, which leads to the nine circles of Hell before a child graduates and leaves home.

See, it's all a vast, intertwined web of numerology.

[Eönwë]

I think Gordis makes a good point.

On another note how about the ring verse:

Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul

Maybe this is one of Tolkien's "puns". There are 13 words, which might correspond to the fact that in LOTR, only 13 rings of effective/important- The Nine, The Three and The One.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

LOL.

I am no expert on old philosophies. You better google "Four elements" and "Five elements" to learn much more.
I gather Tolkien mostly took into account the European (originally Greek) tradition of Air, Water, Fire, Earth and Aether. Especially considering that the Roman Catholic Church backed it. Japanese-Chinese beliefs were more alien to him, I guess.

As for the stones, it is stated (somewhere) that Nenya had an adamant, Narya a ruby and Vilya a sapphire. Nenya was made of mithril, the rest of gold. Every one of the Seven and the Nine had its own stone, but we are not told which ones.

That table's the Pratchett-Discworld one right, the one worked out by Wen the Eternally Surpised?

Okay, so the blue and red stones are specifed as being a ruby and sapphire. okay I withdraw the "three diamonds" theroy, though I do feel it is imcumbent of me to make mention of the fact that until reltively recent times (when technology allowed them to be differentiated) stones were usually assigned their identity based soley on color; any stone that was the right red was assumed to be a ruby, the right shades of green a emerlad etc. (this is why the giant stone in the british crown is called the "black prince's ruby", even though it is tecnically a spinel. Actually when someon did a study of the major sizable historic rubies in the crown jewels of europe, none ) of them turned out to actually be rubies (the few that weren't spinels were garnets) if Middle earth also classifies by color alone than a red diaons would be thought a ruby and a blue one a sapphire. Final fun aside, when the conquistadors first sacked the aztec empire the found in the treasury chuncks of truly incredible emerald (the cream of the mines of Colombia). However at that itme it was believed that emeralds were as hard and tough as diamonds so to test them the conqustadors smashed them with hammers, when the shattered they assumed what they had found was glass and discarded it. (all those fine emeralds you see in cargoes of ships like the Atocha came later after a conqustador who was actually familar with stones happen to be in a party.

[Inziladun]

Ring of fire, Ring of Air, Ring of ?

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I was wondering about something. Given the fact that each of the three eleven rings is associated with an element (Narya is referred to as the ring of fire, Villia as the ring of water, and Nenya as that of air) does anyone else get a feeling that it was orginally Celembrimbor's interntion to craft four eleven rings, that is to make a ring of earth as well. I can even vagely imagine such a ring and what it would look like; it's stone color probably green (I would even go so far as to imagine that said stone would be of similar substance to that which makes up Aragorn's Ellesar (a really fun idea for a fanfic would be the implication that that is what the ellesary orginally was, intended rough for the stone to be set in the Earth ring, and only later re-classified as a sutible token for the King of free men. well what do the rest of you think?

According to the UT chapter The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, The Elessar given to Aragorn had one of two origins:

1. It was made in Gondolin by a smith named "Enerdhil". who gave it to Turgon's daughter, Idril. She gave it to Eärendil, who took it with him to Valinor. Olórin (Gandalf) later brought it with him to ME and gave it to Galadriel

2. Galadriel was complaining to Celebrimbor in Eregion about the fading and decay she saw everywhere in ME. He, out of love for her and knowing the first Elessar to be gone forever, wrought the second Elessar to ease her heart and allow her to heal the hurts of her realm and generally arrest the passage of time (basically the same power she obtained with her use of Nenya). After she was
given the Ring, she gave the Elessar to Celebrían, her daughter, who then gave it to Arwen.

I had never considered the 'elemental' question before and can find no evidence that was Celebrimbor's intention, but I suppose it is possible.
The Elessar, however, seemingly had no part, theoretical or otherwise, in the making of the Three.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

According to the UT chapter The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, The Elessar given to Aragorn had one of two origins:

1. It was made in Gondolin by a smith named "Enerdhil". who gave it to Turgon's daughter, Idril. She gave it to Eärendil, who took it with him to Valinor. Olórin (Gandalf) later brought it with him to ME and gave it to Galadriel

2. Galadriel was complaining to Celebrimbor in Eregion about the fading and decay she saw everywhere in ME. He, out of love for her and knowing the first Elessar to be gone forever, wrought the second Elessar to ease her heart and allow her to heal the hurts of her realm and generally arrest the passage of time (basically the same power she obtained with her use of Nenya). After she was
given the Ring, she gave the Elessar to Celebrían, her daughter, who then gave it to Arwen.

I had never considered the 'elemental' question before and can find no evidence that was Celebrimbor's intention, but I suppose it is possible.
The Elessar, however, seemingly had no part, theoretical or otherwise, in the making of the Three.

I never really meant it to have a part other than theoretically. My though process was a follows; when Celembrior set about making the rings he would have of course have need raw materials, gold, mithril and gems. I made the assumption that for such a special undertaking stones would be cut specifically (there is not particualr reason for this (Celembrimbor, could have just as easly simply reached into a suppy of already cut gems and just taken out a ruby, sapphire, etc of the size he wanted, but having them cut special somehwo seems right). All I was implying with the ellesar angle was that any green stone needed for a hypotetical ring would likely have been of a similar substance to what Ellesar is made of and resemble it in color greatly. what I was implying was that if there was a ring of earth planned but never done Celembrimbor would have had a pieces of green rough lying around. this would actually still fit with the second orgin theory as celembrimbor looks to make another ellessary he look around his workshop finds the chunk of green rough and says to himself "Ah, this will do nicely" an thus begins work on the Ellessar.

[Vairë]

This is an interesting thread. I'd always thought of the One Ring as the ring of aether.
The dwarves' rings (collectively) as rings of earth makes some sense.
The Men's rings . . . well, I would not worry about them too much. Aside from the One, the three eleven rings seem most potent to me, partly because of their bearers.
The nine rings for mortal men would not need to be anywhere near the potency of the three or even the seven. Men, especially kings of men, tend to be proud, ambitious, hubristic in a rediculously short life span (that is, compared to other races). Doesn't take much to put them over the edge; they can be easily tempted to avarice. Also, just a little *magic* (Galadriel might have a problem with my use of the word) would go a long way with Men. Maybe the Men's rings are not identified with an element, but with some compound or are a lower order ring connected to the greater ones only by Sauron's binding-verse. There were many other rings in the earlier Age; any one of them would have been too much for a Man to handle, don't you think?
Just wanted to put this quirky idea forward. Hope it sparks some debate!

[Gordis]

Vairë, I think you underestimate Men - and without good grounds.

After all, Aragorn was a Man, and a great man, (and the greater you are, the greater is the pull of the Ring), but he did resist even the lure of the One: where Boromir and Isildur before him had failed.
The future nazgul were great Men as well, but they were at a grave disadvantage: they had no idea about the nature of the Rings they were offered. They didn't know the peril as the Elves kept the matter of the Rings and Sauron's involvement in it secret.
By the way, the idea that they took the Rings because of "avarice", "greed" and "without questions" in not supported by any Tolkien's writings. It is an invention of the movies, that tend to simplify things and represent Men as weak and greedy.

Anyway, the Nine Rings were not made for Men, but for Elves (as well as the Seven and the Three). They undoubtedly count among the 20 Great Rings, in contrast to the Lesser rings made before. Great Rings were able to prolong the lives of mortals - untill they faded. That was a thing that the Lesser Rings couldn't do. All the Great Rings (save the Ruling Ring) had their proper gems, while the lesser were plain.

Also consider this. The Nine and the Seven were undoubtedly part of the original plan: they were made by Celebrimbor and Annatar jointly. So, if I am right, first they made the Rings of Aether, then the Rings of Earth.

The Three is a questionable matter, Celebrimbor made them alone, after Annatar had left Eregion. But were they made in secret from Annatar, or were they part of the original plan agreed upon? I think the latter: and it is the only possible explanation if the Rings were indeed associated with the elements. (Otherwise how could the plan stop at only two elements out of the five?) Thus Celebrimbor alone made the Rings of Air, Water and Fire and completed the circle.

As for the One, it was surely NOT a part of the plan agreed upon by Celebrimbor and Annatar. It was the Ruling Ring, nasty surprise for Celebrimbor. It exceeded all the 19 Rings in power and seemingly contained all their properties combined. I believe it should be outside the "elemental scheme".